>>16935007
>I can literally count on one hand the people that don't seem miserable, like the kid has ruined their life, but they're begrudgingly trying to pretend it hasn't happened. They all seem so unhappy. They have no free time, no money to do anything, even the people with older kids seem to not do anything but kid-centric shit.
It sounds like you're judging whether their lives are 'ruined' by manchild standards. Yes when you have kids you no longer have time to play video games while eating cheetos and drinking mountain dew. That doesn't mean their lives are ruined, just means they spend their time in a different way now.

I just had a baby and yes it is difficult but it's actually really cool to watch her grow and learn things. Eventually I'll be able to teach her stuff. Pretty damn cool, imo.

>>16935007
Kids are cool man. Change your whole perspective on life.. They see things differently, without all the constraints adults put on themselves.

>>16935007
Why is anything a good thing? If you can talk your way out of that you already know the answer.

Children are part of the life cycle of a human. This is like asking why a maggot needs to become a fly. Every part of your being is wired to want children and to enjoy them when they are around. Maybe you don't like other people's children, but ask any parent and they will tell you that THEY hate other people's children as well.

You will like your own children. You will like raising your own children. The fact that you are hardcoded to have children should imply this to you, but you're looking for an excuse to avoid it.

>>16935017

Let me be more specific about "ruined." I'm not even talking from a "manchild" perspective.

I mean that they're exhausted because the kid keeps them up crying all night. That they actively complain that the kid shit all over them. That they're suffering from depression. That they are too exhausted to do most anything after they get home, cook, and put the kid to bed, but go to bed themselves. That their kid broke the rules at school and hurt another kid. That they couldn't go to a nice dinner because they couldn't get a sitter. That they haven't left the house in months. That it's straining their relationship with their significant others.

I've got tons and tons of examples - a meeting was totally derailed this week while all of the parents talked about how coming to work was their only respite from their "real job," dealing with their kids. I fucking hate my job, so having it be the "relaxing" part of my day sounds like pure shit.

>>16935007
I'm still in the "I don't want kids" category for reasons you have already pointed out. However, I'm 30. I realize that in ten more years, things can and probably will change. My parents didn't have kids until they were almost 40. I personally don't feel like giving up all of the fun things I get to do right now. Will I in 5, 6, 10 years? Possibly. There's no telling. I might get bored or suddenly feel the need to have kids. Maybe you'll be the same way. Maybe you won't. It doesn't matter. Only obnoxious cunts give a shit what others do with their lives.

>>16935035

I actually don't hate other people's kids, I actually think they're pretty cool for the most part. But, I do hate the idea of the major time sink, of contributing all of my resources to something I DON'T have to have. I have to have a job, a place to live, treat my body right so I don't die, but if I'm so "hardwired" to want kids, why don't I want them? Why do people have abortions? Why do people abandon their kids?

I'm not looking for an excuse to avoid it, I have plenty of reasons. What I'm looking for is a reason to embrace it.

>>16935036
All that stuff you mentioned is normal and only temporary though. Being a parent isn't easy, but nothing worthwhile in life is easy. Raising kids is a lot of blood sweat and tears but I wouldn't trade it for anything.

>>16935043
It sounds like you just don't want kids, bro, and that's fine. If you have doubts about them and can only think of them as a 'time sink' and how they will negatively affect you, then PLEASE DO NOT HAVE THEM. Kids are very intuitive and they will know they are not wanted by you if you have them and feel the way you do.

>>16935044

This is more on the right pulse of what I'm looking for, I just have a hard time understanding why they're worthwhile. I mean, my parents are proud of me, and I get that seeing your kid grow up to be a pretty decent person with a good job is cool, but there's no guarantee you don't just have a kid who is a piece of shit and grows up to become nothing, regardless of the resources or attention you give them.

>>16935007
I know married people with children. They all seem very happy and and delighted with their new family

I personally want to make something more out of all the things I know--the good parts about how I was raised, the understanding I have about all the bad parts, etc.--than just my own singular life. I want someone to start with the advantage of not having to experience the same mistakes that I did. I'm sure I'll make my own mistakes with the kid too, but it's a process. S/he gets spared the ones I know to avoid, his/her children get spared the ones I make and so on. I want to pay it forward to someone I'll never live to meet but who might be able to have a happier life. I know it's going to kill my free time, break my wallet and cause me all manner of voluntary stress, but my personal values are what they are.

>>16935070
You're right, there is no guarantee. Sometimes no matter what you do life shits on you anyway.

My husband's mom has 4 kids. The first one turned out to be a crackwhore that tried her best to split up the family but the rest of them are good to all right. My grandma had 4 kids also, one of them is an alcoholic now but my aunts and uncles are awesome. Sometimes a kid just comes out not quite right and no amount of good parenting can fix them.

But these are rare cases. Generally, if you are a good father to your child, and your wife is a good mother, and the two of you love and support one another, your kid will turn out all right. They pick up on what you do.

I'd say having kids isn't about what they give back to you in the long run. Chances are you won't receive a return on your 'investment', so stop thinking of it as one. It's more of an adventure than anything. Raising a child from a defenseless maggot-like organism and watching them turn into a real person with a personality is a truly wonderful experience. Sometimes you'll just look at your kid and think, "Wow. I made that."

>>16935074
>>16935084

These are two very solid responses so far, thanks anons.