I've been looking to learn to trill my R for a few weeks now. I really need it for Russian and Czech. I know Russian since birth and I still can't trill my R which is very very embarrassing.
Fortunately it didn't take me a long time at all to learn to vibrate my tongue. I can do it and I'm very happy that I can, however that is still not enough.
Vibrating a tongue is one thing, but am I doing it correctly? Probably not.
Even if I can do it correctly, I need to learn to use it in words somehow.
These are my 2 problems, also I've heard A LOT of different opinions about what is correct and what is not, and some of them clash with each other, for example:
1) Do I need to also apply voice when vibrating my tongue? Some people say that I must do it, others say my Adam's apple must not vibrate at any cost, which it does if I voice my R, obviously. But if I don't voice my R it doesn't even sound like R, just mostly like air flowing. Is it fixable with practice and I will not have to voice it? Or do I have to voice it but if I do will it be correct?
2) Curling the sides of the tongue against the upper teeth so air will not go to the sides. I can do that easily, but, I've heard some people say it's necessary but a lot of other people not mentioning anything at all about it?
>You will never be able to make a proper trilled R if air can escape to the sides, therefore you must curl your tongue.
Is this statement true? Is curling your tongue the real, redpilled and proper way to do it, or is it just to help you, and people who can trill their R normally don't have to curl their tongues? Because air doesn't escape to the sides for them or because they can trill even with air going to the sides?
(cont..)
Some people say that Russian R is trilled, others say it's just a flap? Who the hell do I believe? How to do a flap, what is it about?
Will it ever be "natural" for me? Will I ever be able to pronounce my R in words properly like other people or am I doomed forever?
Does anyone have any tips to help me use the R in words? Right now I can only RRRRRRR and even that I don't know if I'm doing correctly due to all those different opinions people have :/
Also could people give me tips about Czech Ř? I have no idea at all how to do it, would like some redpilled info about its proper pronunciation rather than going to google again and see people arguing with each other about whether opinion X is correct or not.
And is it harder than normal R?
Basically would like to pronounce R and Ř in the most correct way possible. Would be very glad if someone can answer the questions I posted, give tips, etc. Just give all your info please :) thanks in advance.
>>17257621
bump ^_^
>>17257650
a desperate bump?
Anyone? pls?
>>17257618
My tutor from Moscow talked about this once, she said Russian kids go to speech pathologists? So maybe look into that? I would say the Russian R is trilled, but all of my experiences have been within Moscow dialect speakers, so take that as you will. Sorry I can't be of any better help, I can't trill either and it annoys the fuck out out of me.
>>17257742
>she said Russian kids go to speech pathologists?
Yes I know, however I live in Israel :) we don't have that here.
Anyway thanks man!
It's not an accurate trill, but I've never been able to roll my Rs with the tip of my tongue. Just can't, even though I've tried. I find it much easier to roll them in the back of my throat. Maybe you're the same.
I speak Russian fluently (not natively) -- I'll get to this question in a min, I just need to find my fucking glasses so I can see the page, so don't go anywhere.
Sorry for the wait, can't see shit without my glasses.
>>17257618
>1) Do I need to also apply voice when vibrating my tongue?
Yes. The Russian trill (and as I'm sure you know there's more than one of them, although they're pretty similar) is ALWAYS voiced. I don't know what crazy people are telling you otherwise, but they're wrong.
>2) Curling the sides of the tongue against the upper teeth so air will not go to the sides.
I don't curl my tongue at all for the trill (although I sometimes do a little bit to do the tap). Honestly that might or might not be correct, like I said I'm not a native speaker, but I've never been corrected, and I've certainly asked. You'd probably need to find a speech pathologist or at least a knowledgeable Russian tutor to figure exactly what the right motion to be doing with your tongue is, but I can promise you that whether or not you curl your tongue you'll be understood and nobody will think you sound particularly odd either.
>Some people say that Russian R is trilled, others say it's just a flap? Who the hell do I believe? How to do a flap, what is it about?
A flap is like a trill (tongue in the same spot) but instead of relaxing your tongue and vibrating it with your airflow you just lightly *tap* it against the hard palate, or sometimes right behind it (the hard palate is that ridge behind your upper front teeth.) It's not an exotic sound, it's the middle 'tt' sound in the word 'butter', with an American pronunciation. In Russian it's usually allophonic with the trill, i.e. both sounds are essentially interchangeable. There are some words that I pronounce with a noticeable trill and some where I always go for the flap and to be perfectly honest there's no rule I'm conscious of following, it's just how I learned it. I strongly suspect that if you simply speak Russian as often as you can, listen to it as often as you can, you'll internalize it too and instinctively have a feel for which sound you should make.
I am Russian and struggled my whole life with rolling the R.
What really helped me, was the advice that you have to relax your tongue, while it's in the position for R. Then you have to blow and the sound will come out, but the main thing here is to do the same thing you do with your posture - first you straighten your back, you may relax afterwards, but your back remains straight. You should do the same with your tongue.
>>17257621
No, flap doesn't sound good in Russian.
>>17257618
I am not entirely awake, and I thought this thread was about a sex act.
I was pleasantly surprised.
>>17257855
Hey, OP here, thank you very very much for the answers, made a lot of things clearer to me.
