>>17251080
>Is it possible to be the abuser in an abusive relationship without realizing it?
Yes. A lot of abusive people so selfish they are oblivious to how their behavior affects others, or they look at their behavior as being "right". One of my friends had a father who was a major league asshole that beat his wife and kids but was shocked (enraged really) when the state took his kids away and then later arrested and charged him for the physical abuse.

>Like, what are some textbook indications of being in an abusive relationship?
Are you really incapable of using google?

Everything is perspective, but the adage is that it takes two to tango. You've got to temper that with understanding that some lack the ability, intellectually, emotionally or just practically to escape from fucked situations, but even so when doing that you analyse the situation with a perspective built up on assumptions around the dynamic. I'd say people acting abusively sometimes don't even realise

So while I was accused of being abusive to my ex so was she. Towards the end of the relationship a therapist looked sad and handed me a leaflet titled 'Realising you are in an abusive relationship' and she went completely nuts, physically attacked me and the police were called out.

But it wasn't a game where the highest score gets to claim the dubious moral high ground of victimhood, literally I could not give two shits about that sort of thing any more.

Shit we'd do to each other.

>Gaslight the fuck out of each other to provoke a reaction then plead that we were the reasonable one and they were being unreasonable and they should feel guilty or apologetic for acting unreasonable and then punish that person for having misbehaved.

>Claim that anything which was fairly honest feedback about a mundane issue was a personal attack or an attempt to destroy the others self esteem because the other side was basically evil and got kicks from trying to get the other one to feel terrible.

>Using physical threats to each other or against ourselves to make a point or to get our own way.

>Using friends against each other in order to feel validated that we were without sin and the other was 'crazy'.

>Using 'crazy' in general as a sort of catch all way to simplify "I don't want you to do that" which called into question all sorts of shit and undermined belief in our own abilities and feelings.

>Blaming the other, I cheated because you are horrible to me. I spent all the money because you make me feel like I need to treat myself. Just no personal responsibility.

Yeah we sucked

>>17251126
But if I write an example down and try and see it from other perspectives.

I realised we were having a shitty week and thought I'd cook a nice meal. She came back from work and I said go take a nice soak in the bath, I've cooked a nice meal for us to enjoy.

She shouts down that she never asked for a nice meal, I can't tell her what to do because that is fucked up and she is having a shitty week, the last thing she wants is to see my poor sad puppy dog face because what I'm actually doing is just trying to guilt trip her into being nice to me because I've been an ass hole and by trying to make up for that I'm literally being a manipulative ass hole.

So I'm like ok what is actually the problem? She is all shouting about how I don't trust her and I'm paranoid and that I'm basically accusing her of cheating because I want her to constantly feel awful. Why do I always try to make her feel awful?

I'm like, fuck this I'm going to go for a walk to clear my head. She is shouting at me that by walking away I'm trying to dominate the conversation by refusing to take ownership over my bullshit and I need to grow up.

I come back from a walk and she is still shouting shit from upstairs at me. I think, fuck my life, what can I do to make this stop I just wanted to make a nice fucking meal man and flip the dinner table over. She comes downstairs and rants and raves at me saying I'm a psycho and this is why she doesn't eat dinner with me. She is going out to see her friend (who hates me because she always shit talks me and says she is in an abusive relationship).

Later on her friend comes by with her boyfriend (who is a massive pussy) and they act tough saying they have come to collect some things and I better not act up because they'll call the police because legally blah blah blah. She is staying with them for a few days because she needs to get out of the house because I'm violent and she is scared of me.

>>17251139 >cont
Anyway I picture exactly what is going on over there. Her petty drama friends are babying her and she is playing the battered housewife. Oh god he flipped the table, he left the house because he was angry, well, he wasn't angry, just quiet, that is when I'm the most scared, I just don't know what he could do!

She wasn't going anywhere anyway because it was always a control game. She liked it like that because she didn't know any better. She liked to be a martyr.

So I'm like, whatever I'll pack some shit, her friend is all "NO" "YOU don't get to decide, I get to decide because I'M trusted". I'm wanting to tell them to get the fuck off my property and wait for me to calmly pack a bag for her, but they are ranting on about how legally the police would remove me because she is just so shaken up right now.

Urgh. Fucking whatever. Anyway, after a couple of days she'd come back and expect me to apologise to her for my behaviour and swear all sorts of things which she'd drag up whenever she wanted her own way and she'd still bring up the initial event again and again whenever anything got a little stale for us.

Sometimes I'd lock myself in the spare room to get away from her throwing a tantrum because she wanted to fight and she'd lay outside the door all night crying and begging me to come out threatening to hurt herself and saying why did I keep doing this to her, why did I hate her so much that I'd go this far to try and get her to kill herself when all she wanted was to love me.

Like yeah, run off and tell your friends that I acted selfishly and ignored you even when you threatened to kill yourself because I was being so unreasonable. When I'm trying to get the fuck away from you because you are completely crazy and want to fight.

It is all perspective I guess. From her shoes I was trying to get her to harm herself because I literally did not care enough to save her when she was threatening to harm herself because I must have wanted her to.

>>17251139
>>17251153

Dude. She's fucking some guy on the side. She wouldn't introduce that as an accusation unless she was thinking that you might accuse her of doing so. Her overreaction to a fairly innocuous thing like cooking her dinner kind of confirms it. You've probably dodged a bullet.

>>17251153
Anyway. Long story short I learnt that no relationship is perfect. Everyone to some extent will play to their strengths and even weaknesses in order to get what they want even if that is unhealthy and manipulation is a fact of life, everybody does it and sometimes motivations are complex and not always built on logical ground. I was likely the manifestation of her absent father and the target for her anger and the frustration absorbed from her own mother when she was growing up combined with a few step fathers who were always no good in the eyes of her mother. I felt forced into a role which I initially adopted because it started out quite pleasant and she convinced me that I was different and special and it felt good to be needed.

I was the one who cheated. In hindsight I did so in an attempt to destroy the relationship, but she wasn't put off. For her it was the open wound which never stopped giving, I threw her a bone there.

Anyway, Just try and be aware I guess. I'm dating a psychologist who specialises in children within dysfunctional families and she is right on with so much and so on top of her own motivations and that suits my slightly autistic logical stoicism down to the ground yet even she is capable of a bit of mind fuck.

>How was that blowjob?
>Great?
>Out of 10?
>Define a frame of reference?
>Well, if it was great then it must be a 10, wait, you mean compared to other people?
>No I mean otherwise I'm saying 5 and the next one will allow comparison. You can give me another now if you like?
>5?! What the fuck? 5? Are you trying to make me feel like shit or something? Do you like making me feel like shit or something?
>Hey calm your tits, don't project an insecurity onto me, I never mentioned other people, I never brought up this out of 10 business, I'm just being playful and saying of course I need a frame of reference otherwise a figure is meaningless?
>Right, so I'm being unreasonable then?
>Urgh. It won't be hard to beat 5 after this.

Hehe, interesting you brought this up. My ex told me when she left me that I'm abusive and insensitive. I didn't believe her at the time because I always told her I loved her and would have done anything for her. I loved her so fucking much and yet I was hurting her without me even realizing it she was actually suffering inside. In the end she couldn't take it anymore, she told me she didn't love me anymore and I got dumped, all because I was insecure. But one thing I know for sure, I loved her to death. If only she would've given me a bit more time ...
Alas, maybe in the future when we're both more mature.

Looking back she was right to a degree. My abusive behavior stems from trust issues. I always was afraid of her not really cheating on me, but finding someone that she would fall for (we were in a LDR)

I only read about half of this but holy shit, no, she was the abusive one. Trust me, I know, because I was in a relationship like that for seven years. Immediately afterwards it sucks, you feel like a fuckin drain and that life just can't get any worse.


If there's any one thing I can say and hope someone listens to me on this board, it's this: Get the fuck out of that relationship, take some time to yourself, bury yourself in work, and try to find some new friends or build new, productive hobbies (learn an instrument, start a business, volunteer at a shelter, grow a garden, just something you can see yourself progress on). But do something to keep your mind occupied while you heal - and after you heal and the only thing left is the scars, un-learn all the shit the other person taught you about being abusive. She was the abusive one, and being with her has rubbed off on you and you got some of it, whether you'd like to admit it or not. Alcohol will not solve the problem. You have to foster your own growth, no one else can or will do it for you. It's the reason why 80% of the people on /adv/ are virgins or otherwise incapable of meeting someone new - they have some kind of emotional baggage that they carry around and no one wants to deal with that.

I wish you the best anon.

I just think that while there is clearly what the majority of people would define as 'abusive' behaviour there is also a bunch of things which depend very much on how you choose to define it and this is very much based on the individuals concerned. I'd also say be aware if it is worthwhile for that individual to feel like a victim as well because maybe they never even thought of it that way and maybe they don't want to.

Like I had an ex who when angry with me would often say she was going for a walk to clear her head. She'd do this even at bad times like the middle of the night in dangerous parts of the city and she'd say I would be to blame if something terrible happened and remind me that I should have thought of that before arguing with her.

Like what the fuck? We had a disagreement, so now you are going to put yourself in a dangerous position and hope I feel bad in retrospect should something bad happen? Wait, are you using the fact I care about your physical safety in order to manipulate me into letting you win future disagreements? If something bad did happen then what? I've got to me a paragon of sympathy and shame due to my personal failings by letting you walk out of their angry despite knowing full well it is potentially dangerous for you? Jesus.

>>17251224
No sweat anon. She is long out of my life. I'd mostly kind of decided we were done and we were trying to work things out when I went away to visit friends to get my head together after another typically fucked up situation.

We were still talking though and 'working it out' and I tried the home phone Monday morning. She didn't pick up and I eventually got her on her mobile phone around her lunch break.

She said she'd lost the hand set at home and the batteries were dead so call her mobile and don't try her office phone because she'd get in trouble for taking personal calls, but funnily enough I'd already called her office a little after 9am after she didn't answer the home phone that morning and they told me she'd called in sick.

So basically the few days I was away she called and said she loved me and missed me and couldn't wait for me to get home and she was busy at work and stuff, but it was all a lie for whatever reason because she was somewhere else pretending to be at work.

When I got home I told her I knew that it was bullshit and where had she been and why and I got told.

>How dare I not trust her
>How dare I snoop around
>How dare I involve her work and threaten her professional life
>I created this situation by being the kind of guy you have to lie to
>I don't let her have friends or a social life because I get aggressive
>She lied because she didn't want me to get mad because she loves me

At that point it was like, goodbye cruel emotional hooks, I think the last of the connection we had just evaporated and all your bullshit is simply that now, just bullshit, I don't even care where you were, or why, I don't even care about your attempts to manipulate me into feeling bad for your dishonesty, I'm simply disinterested.

>>17251268 >cont
I went and put a couple of big locks on the spare room door and moved all my possessions into that room and then left the house to go stay with a friend. I started looking for a place to stay and I said we'd talk about it when I was ready.

We sat down to talk a couple of days later and her first words were "you need to apologise for making me lie" and I was "lol we are totally done, that was the one chance to say something different for a change". I moved all my stuff out that week.

I got a fair bit of shit from her and her 'support network' for a few months around the city because apparently I'd been an ass hole and fucked her over, but after a few months things ran true to type and even they got sick of her shit and drama, infighting and lies and in the long run everyone moderate who knew us started to come down on my side seeing her acting the way she was and she moved city.

Hey guys, OP here. Sorry, I was away for a while because I have an exam.

I'm really never angry and I never lashed out at any of my partners. However, in one particular case, at the end of the relationship, she was constantly going on about how I have no empathy and how I was straight-up asking her to 'please' me by asking for explanations as to why she didn't want to get back together. I realise I have trouble with empathy, and whatever empathy I have seems emulated, learned or conditioned most of the time. Apparently, she knew that I knew that she was a 'pleaser' as she would call it. I never consciously tried to manipulate her using that, nor was I consciously aware of that fact.

She also started having panic attacks about 9 months into our relationship, I always tried to comfort her during those times. Because I didn't know how to deal with that and because she didn't know herself what the problem was, I oppered the idea of seeing a psychologist. The best she could describe the feeling was 'being like a bird in a cage'.

I don't know. All that shit has started making me doubt myself. Maybe I am a manipulative asshole. Maybe those panic attacks were because of me. I never felt like I was being unkind to her or that I was guilt-tripping her or some shit.

One day, one argument (over sex) escalated, and I left her place because the weather was really nice outside (first day in months; we don't have a lot of nice weather here) and I didn't want to deal with that, rough week at school and stuff. I lived right next door though as I kind of moved in with her after a year and some of our relationship. Separate front doors though. She then texted me that we were through. She said that she hasn't been content with the relationship for about half a year then. But I didn't understand, as literally the night before she texted 'I love you and I miss you so much, when will you be back here?' and all that cheesy shit. Or did she just manipulate me into feeling like an abuser?

>>17252118
Also it feels like I am manipulating myself into thinking I'm the victim here, which is scary as fuck. Because I did some research after I made this thread and apparently manipulators love to victimize themselves. I can't even trust myself anymore.

>>17252118
Doesn't sound like you were abusive, you maybe weren't the best with managing her issues. But it sounds like neither was she. Her texting you stuff after breaking up might have been out of anger. There were probably ups and downs for the half a year, and when she was upset she only could think of the negatives.

I don't think she "manipulated" you, her problems made her actually see you as the abuser. Self esteem or emotional issues makes her a pleaser. Because she felt incapable of standing up for what she wanted/putting herself first, she blamed you. (Written based on this one post, since I think the other story isn't yours.)

>>17251080

yes. no one thinks

>im a bully

they just think that the geeky kid deserves it for being so dumb, weird, pretentious etc.

no one thinks
>I'm a slut

they just think they really like sex

no one thinks
>I'm unattractive

they just think girls only like assholes.


no one thinks
>I'm an abuser

they just think they got out of control because their partner pushed them.

and they kinda do. i never thought id be an 'abuser' but i found myself borderline yelling at my partner a lot. i never yell at other partners. he just frustrates me. so i broke up with him.

>>17252185
I don't know man. Right now I've been in a mostly sexual relationship with another submissive girl since November, and I catch myself acting basically the same. The girl that I wrote the 2000-character story about that you responded to could also be classified as submissive, if you believe in dominant/submissive personalities. I actually see a lot of her in my current partner. They are basically alright with whatever I ask of them, which makes it easy to be selfish because they are so indecisive. I think this is possibly a form of manipulation, and thus it makes it easy to see myself as a manipulator or abuser.

Maybe that is the whole appeal of submissive girls to me, which means it's a deeper rooted problem and I'm possibly fucked up in the head in some way, taking advantage like that.

Another thing with my current relationship: she is in love with me, but I am not so much with her. We talked about this and she is alright with me not wanting to take it a step further, but we are still seeing each other. I'm actually on my way to her right now. It kind of makes me feel like an asshole leading her on like that, but we have fun.

>>17252287
Well, now you're changing how you phrase things.

>Apparently, she knew that I knew that she was a 'pleaser' as she would call it. I never consciously tried to manipulate her using that, nor was I consciously aware of that fact.
vs.
>They are basically alright with whatever I ask of them, which makes it easy to be selfish because they are so indecisive.

First one comes across like you're completely in the dark and she told you all those things. Latter sounds like you're choosing to be selfish because you know you can get away with it.

>>17252410
Exactly. This is why I'm so paranoid about all this. If I reflect really hard, then these are my conclusions of what might be going on.

I'm not actively using the 'pleasing' mentality for personal gain, but the fact that they are indecisive might subconsciously make me do that. I have to make decisions if they won't. I don't actively manipulate them into not making decisions. But I might react to that in a way that I'm not actively aware of myself in that moment, because decisions always have to be made. Do you see what I'm trying to say?

>>17251080
I think you can make manipulative arguments without realising, but its hard to be abusive in a relationship without knowing it.
I was a dick head to my ex, but I knew what I was doing, I justified how I'd act in my head with what she had done, it wasn't a healthy relationship.

>>17252436
Honestly, I less see what you're saying in this post. Maybe say some specific examples?
If you keep saying vague things, easy to flip back and forth. Try to be more present and aware of yourself. Think about what you're doing, and how it affects her.
Making a decision for her isn't necessarily abusive. If she trusts you to help her make a decision and you focus on your best interests instead of hers, that could be abusive. Again, hard to say without specific incidents.You need to take care of yourself, but you should do that without taking advantage of someone.

I was in an online relationship where I was abusive. I thought I was doing the right thing by staying with someone who was suicidal. I really cared and wanted to help, and the first however many suicide threats I cried, begged them not to do it, said things would get better etc.... And eventually I ended up drained. I couldn't do it anymore. I'd send maybe one "don't stop/don't do it" because I felt obligated to, knowing they weren't going to do anything and that caring would be dragging myself through emotional hell for no reason. I should have broken up. I was dealing with my own issues, and by staying I made both of our problems worse. Don't think my story is that rare for online relationships though.