>villain wants to instigate instrumentality and turn humanity into a hivemind to stop all conflict and bring eternal peace and happiness OR place humanity in their own dream paradises to accomplish pretty much the same objective
>protagonist objects to this for shitty, vague, undefined reasons like "robbing humanity of their freedom/individuality/progress" or "this isn't true peace/happiness" and in general just throws around a bunch of nice-sounding buzzwords before punching the villain in the face
Why is this plot so incredibly common in anime and why do protagonists never, ever have an actual good argument to why it's a bad thing? Code Geass did it. Negima did it. Naruto did it. Fate/Apocrypha did it.
And Evangelion did it before all of them, but at least had the decency to not portray either choice as unambiguously good and had Shinji make his choices out of entirely selfish reasons.
Or Gundam 00, which, despite all its flaws, had the whole telepathic hivemind thing as the protagonists' goal and portrayed as a good thing for once, because UNDERSTANDING.
Is there any anime that actually manages to make an actual decent case for why it's a bad idea?
If happiness is the goal of life, why did humans evolve to have any other emotion?
You are screwed no matter how you try to answer this.
>>141294556
Happiness isn't the goal of life, making more life is.
Happiness is just a biological carrot on a stick that makes you pursue actions that will most likely lead to you making more life.
Hence why eating food and having sex make you feel so happy.
>>141294381
>Is there any anime that actually manages to make an actual decent case for why it's a bad idea?
Evangelion fucking explained it perfectly, you autist. If you think it was just shinji's "selfish reasons" you missed the entire point
Happiness without sadness isn't happiness at all, and if you just mesh all of humanity together into one consciousness so everyone "understands" each other and no one is hurt ever again you're destroying any sort of meaning to life and human connections. Evangelion is about growing the fuck up and realizing that life isn't all sunshine and rainbows and learning to cope with that grief makes you a better person
You're just likely a manchild who thinks a fantasy world is preferable to getting a job and finding a gf.
>>141294556
>why did humans evolve to have any other emotion
So that we don't do dumb things and can continue to survive to be happy?
If pain and fear didn't exist people would die off pretty quickly.
>>141295369
So then the purpose of life is to continue living and not to be happy.
>>141294381
Even Naruto did it.
>>141295055
>Happiness without sadness isn't happiness at all
This is a ridiculously silly notion. It's perfectly possible to be happy without ever feeling sad. Are you suggesting that well-adjusted people with pleasant lives purposefully subject themselves to physical and emotional distress so they can "deepen" and better appreciate their happiness?
>>141294381
I'll give you a fucking reason why its a bad idea. Because in your scenario, its a thing that's forced upon everyone. Well guess what? Not everyone wants that. Not everyone wants to essentially die and be absorbed into a blob of sunshine and rainbows. Some people would rather face a reality with flaws than a fake world of happiness. It all comes down to the fact that turning humanity into a hivemind unwillingly is akin to the genocide of every single person, all for the creation of one happy organism.
>>141295471
Yeah, but if sadness ceases to exist, there are no negative experiences, every experience is a positive one, devaluing happiness to the point of everything being pointless.
>>141295055
M8 things like human connections and learning to cope with grief and getting a job and finding a gf are only necessary in the first place because we aren't a collective pile of orange tang.
None of those are actually reasons why individual existence is actually better than a collective one.
>>141295471
>Are you suggesting that well-adjusted people with pleasant lives purposefully subject themselves to physical and emotional distress so they can "deepen" and better appreciate their happiness?
You sound more and more like a NEET that never leaves the house with every post
There's no point in arguing about it because the exact nature of the tang was poorly defined. At least, there's no point for the Eva example.
>>141295587
This. Every anime already flat out said why. It's hilarious how OP dared to claim the anime never gave a proper answer. Those answers were given, OP just didn't like the answers.
>>141294886
Bingo. I always laugh at anyone who tries to argue that reproduction isn't the sole purpose of life.
When did Negima do it? I don't remember that at all. Also seconding >>141295587
Evangelion is the perfect scenario where people get to choose.
>recently finished Foundation and Earth by Asimov
It dealt with this argumentative topic in-depth.
>>141295704
The biological imperative is to reproduce, yes.
>>141295704
I think most people that make that point aren't coming at it from a biological perspective.
>>141295625
>ad hominem: the post
>>141295725
>Evangelion is the perfect scenario where people get to choose.
But the choice is between the hivemind and a barren world empty of life. Pretty shit choice desu
>>141295704
People saying that life has a purpose at all is rediculous.
Life is a function. Life that does not reproduce does not last very long, or rather, gets beaten by life that does reproduce.
Imagine if immortality was discovered today, but the cost was sterility. Would these immortals be alive?
They can't reproduce.
Even looking at the cellular level, their cells are reproducing but like during your life your cells are reproducing but not with the intention of creating a new human, but maintaining a current one.
Did everyone just decide to watch NGE all of a sudden? Are there usually this many Eva threads in the catalog?
Also >>141294381
>villain wants to instigate instrumentality
>villain
In the end, there really aren't any villains. Good and evil become pretty meaningless concepts in the last part of EoE, and all that's left is the choice between existing as one with everyone else in the great ocean of primordial soup, or coming back as an individual, with all that entails. It's a binary choice, but certainly not an easy one.
>>141295785
It's not ad hominem when it's relevant to the argument
>why would anyone ever want to suffer?
>I can just sit in and play video games on my mom's dime, it's easier than finding a job and securing independence! that requires work!
>Why do I even need a gf when I can just fap to anime porn? A real gf would break up with me eventually or cheat on me with Chad, so pursuing any sort of intimate connection with someone else is useless, this is fine
This is entirely relevant when you're arguing for the righteousness of a collective fantasy world where no one has any sort of identity, memories, or connections with others, because hey, at least it's easy and comfortable and I'll never feel bad ever again!
You're literally Shinji, m8. You're just refusing to man up in the end like he did.
>>141295592
Why does a lack of the negative necessarily devalue the positive?
Should factories make sure to leave in some defective products to avoid devaluing the functional ones? Should supermarkets avoid removing bad produce to avoid devaluing the ones that won't give you food poisoning? Is there an ideal ratio of good:bad we should aim for in everything that will best increase the value of the good with minimum presence of the bad?
>>141295878
SEELE was pretty fucking villainous. A bunch of selfish old men willing to murder people for their own goals
>>141295905
^^^^
Literally the whole point of the live-action sequence in EoE. Escapism isn't a cure for suffering, just a shoddy cover over it.
>>141295855
>Would these immortals be alive?
They can't reproduce.
Yeah, they'd still be alive. Something doesn't need to reproduce to be considered alive. We don't go around proclaiming sterile people to be dead.
>>141295878
Funnily enough, I just watched NGE for the first time this weekend. I only see 1 dedicated post in the catalog though
>>141295704
'Purpose' is a human concept. To any other lifeforms, reproduction is just a thing that happens and have no deeper meaning to it.
>>141295905
NEETs are looked down upon because past and present societies assume the principle that everybody needs to contribute their own share of utility to society's function to get their own in return.
If you were to somehow become a NEET without relying on the rest of society supporting your indulgence nobody would piss in your cornflakes for doing so. That's essentially what retirement fucking is.
If you consider Instrumentality to be the collective NEETing of humanity (it isn't, but for simplicity's sake let's say it is) and this state of being can somehow sustain itself indefinitely there's no reason not to let everyone become NEETs. Hell, this is what most futurologists argue will happen to humanity in the future in some fashion since robots will far outstrip human labor in their ability to support society in any meaningful fashion leaving humanity with no "necessary" work to do, so to speak.
All willing springs from lack, from deficiency, and thus from suffering. Fulfillment brings this to an end; yet for one wish that is fulfilled there remain at least ten that are denied. Further, desiring lasts a long time, demands and requests go on to infinity, fulfillment is short and meted out sparingly. But even the final satisfaction itself is only apparent; the wish fulfilled at once makes way for a new one; the former is a known delusion, the latter a delusion not as yet known. No attained object of willing can give a satisfaction that lasts and no longer declines; but it is always like the alms thrown to a beggar, which reprieves him today so that his misery may be prolonged till tomorrow. Therefore, so long as our consciousness is filled by our will [which is as long as we are will-filled living beings], so long as we are given up to the throng of desires with its constant hopes and fears, so long as we are the subject of willing, we never obtain lasting happiness or peace. Essentially, it is all the same whether we pursue or flee, fear harm or aspire to enjoyment; care for the constantly demanding will, no matter in what form, continually fills and moves consciousness; but without peace and calm, true well-being is absolutely impossible.
>>141296246
You missed the point entirely just so you could defend your NEET lifestyle, bucko
>>141295704
Life has no "purpose"
It merely is
>>141296246
>expecting any serious discussion from a shitposter
>>141296272
>alms thrown to a beggar
>alms
>being this thesaurus
>>141296341
It's not shitposting, faggot. Evangelion made its message clear, and anyone who finds it objectionable is likely a NEET who is doing exactly what the show was arguing against - living in an escapist world of vapid, superficial pleasures in order to shirk responsibilities and protect themselves from hurt at the expense of any real joy or meaning in their lives.
Did you think the show was just about giant robots? Do you think it had no deeper meaning whatsoever? Did you take nothing away from this show?
>>141296465
It's a quote you dip
>>141296465
Not the anon you replied to, but are you really so far down on the spectrum that you've never learned the word "alms"? Its not used super commonly in everyday conversation, but I think it's reasonable to expect people to know it.
>>141295587
Then it becomes a matter of weighing the value of individual human agency vs. alleviation of human suffering, right? That's something we already do on an everyday basis when it comes to debating individual rights and freedoms vs. potential harms.
I liked it in JoJo part 6 since it was more about letting everyone know their own fate so they can come to terms with it and live the time they have in peace, since that won't just make everyone happy and encourages fatalism so there's a reason to be against it. And the protagonists had personal reasons for wanting Pucci dead.
>>141296497
>anybody who disagrees with me and my favorite anime's themes must be a worthless NEET
wew lad
Not even Anno fully agrees with the original show's message anymore.
>>141296465
Please tell me English isn't your first language.
>>141296637
>responding to it
>>141294381
>Jeanne fucking d' Arc of all people is the one to oppose Marik's plan to remove evil from the souls of all of humanity forever
God, Apocrypha was such a trainwreck.
>>141296747
There can be no salvation without sin my friend.
>>141296637
Of course not, He's now making money of it and built a career out of it.
Eva would've been so much better without the needless fanservice. I can understand using it as a framing tool for Shinji's hormonal teenage perspective, but I don't really get it outside of that context
>>141296880
>I can understand using it as a framing tool for Shinji's hormonal teenage perspective, but I don't really get it outside of that context
It has no purpose outside of that context, like any other fucking thing if you take it out of context.
Are you stupid?
>>141296747
>God, Shirou is doing a very bad thing and I should stop him right
>Yeah gurl, you go and beat up that megalomaniacal son of a bitch
>thanks God, I don't have any doubts anymore!
>no problem, I'm not really God anyways, just a voice in your head
>>141294381
Lelouch had a good argument for rejecting it in Code Geass though. Not just for the lack of individuality, but because it makes our normal life experience come across as meaningless and a lie.
>>141295409
No you retard
The purpose of living is to be happy longer.
If you know there is no way of being happy than you should fucking kill yourself you faggot.
>>141294381
Go to bed, Dr. Ikari.
>>141296880
>fanservice
I dont think there was any "fanservice" in eva
>>141295055
>You're just likely a manchild who thinks a fantasy world is preferable to getting a job and finding a gf.
but it is better, you degenerate normalfag.
>>141297259
>Advocating NEETdom
>Claiming that being normal is degenerate
>>141295587
>face a reality with flaws than a fake world of happiness
what is reality and what is fake anyway? It doesn't matter when it comes to a choice like this. It's as retarded than people who live by pride
>>141297413
Shut up Mewt.
>>141297413
>what is reality and what is fake anyway?
I don't know, Socrates, maybe we're all just Boltzmann brains floating around in the aether
or maybe the average well-adjusted person can actually tell the difference between fiction and reality
>>141297154
>forgetting the massive fujoshit
>>141297358
do you know where you are?
>>141295725
Cosmo Entelecheia
>>141294886
*tips fedora*
>>141301351
>tfw Jack Rakan KAMINA'd out of it not once, but twice.
Because an too much freedom without purpose turns into boredom.
>>141297598
Was thinking of posting this, glad someone did
