F/SN is overall deeper than F/Z. Discuss.
Yes.
>>117386023
Obviously.
OP trolling aside, FSN was really well thought out. Everything surrounding the conflict of ideals, allusions of justice/swords, character foiling and exploration was masterful.
FZ was written for the sole purpose of Gen/Nasu masturbating over Kirei vs Kiritsugu. However, Kiritsugu didn't have the same kind of thought process towards Kirei as Shirou did. Therefore, the fight was only as cool as "the father of Shirou fighting Kirei" instead of "Kiritsugu vs Kirei."
Mind of Steel was explored through Archer's failings, seeing Kiritsugu's methods were redundant. And there are numerous bad endings where Rin walks her fathers path as well.
Kariya and Rider are the only two good exclusive characters of FZ. In comparison to FSN where we have Shirou, Archer, Rin, Kirei, Ilya and Saber.
>I am the bone of my sword
"I am literally a sword"
>Steel is my body and fire is my blood
"I am literally an iron-production factory"
>I have created over a thousand blades
"I've produced a shitload of swords"
>Unknown to death nor known to life
"I barely even qualify as a living human being."
>Have withstood pain to create many weapons
"I've pretty much fucked myself over repeatedly to follow this path."
>Yet, those hands will never hold anything
"My life was really shitty."
>So as I pray, unlimited blade works
"I failed the fall semester too."
>>117386388
>Kariya
>good
Hey Aoi my grampa isn't actually teaching your kid magic instead his harvesting her for alchemical components!
Just thought you should know seeing as you're the town's supervising family and have access to the magus association enforcers as well as the churche's top executioners who are specifically trained to deal with this sort of stuff.
>>117386489
The situation is far more complicated than that.
First of all, Kariya didn't even know the exact circumstances of Sakura until he agreed to the Crest Worms and fighting to save her.
It's not so certain to expect Zouken would let him live if he backed out of that. He ran away one time, betraying his families magic lineage, and now he knows something that could threaten Zouken's life? You know, that guy who craves immortality above all else?
Also, Kariya wanted the glory to himself. To swoop in like a knight in shining armor and return Sakura to an astonished Aoi. To recite the details of her harsh treatment that her husband gave her away to and then how he fixed all of it himself.
Why didn't Kiritsugu read a book on Utilitarianism, and realize that education not bullets was the answer?
Also real question why didn't the first two grail wars succeed? We know why 3-5 failed, but the first 2 weren't tainted, and from what we know it seems like they had actual competent and "In the know" masters?
The only think I can think of is that you can't obtain the same true magic via a different method.
>>117386628
Kiritsugu had no means of enacting change on such a grand scale.
Prior to learning about the Grail, he only really fought to minimize casualties. When he learned about the Grail, he decided to use it to create instant world peace.
>>117386588
>First of all, Kariya didn't even know the exact circumstances of Sakura until he agreed to the Crest Worms and fighting to save her.
He doesn't know and yet his willing to kill himself over it rather than mentioning any of his suspicions to anybody?
masterful characterization, I guess he left home because he though it was drafty
>>117386628
>first "war"
>summon 3 vessels from 3 families
>families command them to suicide
>notenoughmana.jpg
>2nd war
>"fine we'll invite outsiders to our secret club, but they get shit-tier servant classes"
>clusterfuck ensues
>church gets involved
>vessel is killed
>>117386628
The was a falling out during the first was that basically resulted into the war's failure. The three families couldn't decide how the Grail should be used so they through a hissy fit and stopped working together.
The second war introduced third parties, but failed because there were no rules and it pretty much resulted in an absolute bloodbath with no winner. If there's no winner then no one can obtain the grail.
>>117386698
Einzberns didn't start using Homunculi for vessels until the Fourth War, since the original Grail Container was accidentally destroyed during the Third.
>>117386696
He probably knew that Sakura would undergo the worms, as that is the Matou family magic.
The question was when. 6 year old's normally do not receive a families crest.
And if Zouken hadn't started the training yet but Kariya went and told Aoi anyways, that would make him look like a complete fucktard and probably end up killed anyways.
>>117386698
How did they figure out that 7 was the magic number?
I mean did the measure the contents of the 1st grail and go "yeah about 3 servants should do it, 4 to be safe."
>>117386682
He could have become a teacher.
>>117386762
There still needed to be a vessel to gather up the mana from servants, just an object instead of a homunculi.
>>117386802
Being a teacher would not have solved his issues.
He fought in order to minimize casualties. Even if he became a teacher instead, people would still die. He fought so that less people would die.
Same with the Grail. A single teacher would not be able to stop worldwide conflict. He'd teach a few kids across a few generations and die without ever having really accomplished anything. The Grail (as far as he knew) could change the whole world in an instant.
>>117386802
7 is not the magic number. As you see in FZ, the grail was filled after 5 died. And somebody like Gil is worth 5 alone.
They probably looked at it with 3 and were like "Hmm, needs a few more but let's go 7 just to be safe."
>>117386023
I agree.
>>117386782
>that would make him look like a complete fucktard and probably end up killed anyways.
as opposed to what he did?
Face it, his the most half-assed part of Zero. Including Caster and that's saying something.
>>117386846
Maybe he should have just gone to therapy and realized that the small differences we make are what really matters.
Most of F/SN's attempts at being meaningful made me laugh. It was like reading the VN equivalent of somebody going "what if the color blue I see isn't the color blue you see?" and acting all pleased with themselves. UBW especially was like this. Such a silly route.
>>117386628
> read a book on Utilitarianism
it's actually surprising that no fiction work involving moral dilemma shows the sligthest knowledge about basic moral concept.
>>117386887
He was dissatisfied with small changes.
Not to mention, human history is literally filled with conflicts. We've existed for tens of thousands of years and not once has there been even a single moment without conflict. Kiritsugu saw humanity as a lost cause. That's why he relied on a deus ex machina to force humanity to change.
>>117386884
I'll admit it's a bit contrived and most people would definitely do something different. I still don't think it makes him a badly written character, if anything he's more consistent by making terrible decisions through and through.
>>117386887
What Kiritsugu desired was a world without conflict. Forever.
This is basically impossible as long as human sentience exists. Kiritsugu's wish was impossible from the start, short of wiping out all of humanity.
>>117386936
On a global scale we conflict less now. You can put the most cynical spin on reasons why, but we aren't killing each as openly as we did before.
I mean I get that he was seriously messed up, but man his life would be less fucked if he decided "I'm gonna be a therapist" instead of "I'm gonna be a mercenary", granted who knows maybe someone else would have won the 4th and everyone would have died.
>>117386931
That would require authors to have to read up on multiple philosophers including ones the don't agree with, and present them reasonably or else it all becomes everyone is a strawman.
>>117386023
F/Z is like a shallow pool of ambrosia. F/SN is like a vast canyon filled with excrement. Yeah it's "deeper," meaning there's more content, but it's all so shitty it doesn't really matter when compared to the more concise narrative of zero.
How about no, that's an opinion popular among teenagers OP.
Even Nasu publicly admit that he was inexperienced when writing FSN and that Zero blows it all out of them water.
>>117386884
The point is that he's a loser and should have got a life of his own.
>>117387086
There will never come a time without conflict. Humans are diverse. Everyone's different. Everyone has different interests, desires. As long as that diversity exists between humans, as long as we're not essentially a hivemind, it's probably not possible for there to be no conflict.
Kiritsugu disliked that so he sought to change it. People seem to think he's smarter and more mature than Shirou is, but the fact is, he's far more simple, childish and narrowminded than Shirou could ever be.
>>117387120
>Even Nasu publicly admit that he was inexperienced when writing FSN
Yes
>and that Zero blows it all out of them water.
No
>>117387003
I'd have bought it if it were just "I'll become your heir instead of Sakura" "lol k fight in the HGW then I'll let you both go" instead we have the extra grimderp appeal of him literally commiting suicide in order to use magic which is him doing a coin flip expecting the best outcome to be that an evil immortal vampire winds up being omnipotent and him dead an the other side as what we got.
Now compare this to the plan which has him look stupid.
>>117387193
Zero's postface
>>117387226
Zouken already stopped giving a shit. He wouldn't have taken Kariya back as heir. And Sakura was way too good to pass up, since he wasn't even planning to use her as an heir in the first place.
>>117387120
Nasu is humble. Gen is humble. Japanese are humble. You shouldn't take their words objectively.
>>117387234
Even if you quote it, which you still haven't, it's probably in standard Japanese humble writing.
Japanese creators will literally always say humble shit like that and it holds no meaning. The fact that you say it's in the FZ postface even furthers this.
>>117387095
>F/Z is like a shallow pool of ambrosia
F/Z is a fata morgana
everything decent in it was directly lifted from something else Type-Moon
>>117387486
He wanted to strip people of their free will. You may find that acceptable, but I don't.
>he's far more simple, childish and narrowminded than Shirou could ever be
Yet even then, the cause he tries to realize is a noble and selfless one. Even if Kiritsugu is a fool who loses everything else he cares about in chasing after an impossible ideal, he really was trying to save the world. You can ask 100 people who aren't edgy teenagers or armchair philosophers about whether they would want lasting world peace, and you likely would get 100 answers to the affirmative. But how many of those hundred would take any steps to make that better world? How many of those hundred would even consider making personal sacrifices for the good of all mankind?
It's for those reasons that Kiritsugu is as much someone to be pitied as he is a true hero.
>>117387086
They could have read the basic concepts, utilitarianism isn't hard and it's fiction. I don't require academic quality from them.
Also Kerry is kind of already a strawman of utilitarianism, or in any case a intuitive buff made against utilitarianism.
>>117387168
Kiritsugu should have read Leviathan.
>>117387168
>it's probably not possible for there to be no conflict.
That is such a big thing to just suppose.
It's very possible that interests based on a rational ground do no interfere with each other.
That means interests such as; You must follow my religion, I must rule over this territory and such would not count.
I liked girl Archer better.
>>117386388
>Good
>Shirou, Saber and Kirei
... wut.
>>117387666
Is this one of those "jokes" I hear people talking about?
>>117387666
Even Saber redeemed herself in Heaven's Feel
The depth of FSN itself is pretty overrated.
The message is cool but it doesn't go very far in the game itself.
it feels more like people are in love with the idea rather than the execution to me
>>117387666
Nice trips.
Ignore the underaged FSN fan base, they're just pretty dumb overall.
>>117387666
>doesn't think Shirou is well-written
>but Archer is
Nice try shitposter.
>>117387466
Rider.
QED.
>>117387777
A greentext response with no argument to my paragraph and you're calling the FSN base underaged and dumb?
Please kindly shitpost elsewhere. Alternatively, consider suicide.
>>117387763
Yeah, some fags seem to mistake expositions for depth. Fate has a lot of explaining and text and beating around the bus, but the whole concept is pretty hollow compared to Zero. They should lurk on the term "show, not tell" to be actually competent readers.
>>117387737
.... okay, you may have a point there, but up until that point she is just terrible.
>>117387777
nice quads
Might I recommend you a mature series like death note?
>>117387786
no, archer is average. his story is pretty bad but he actually has some form of charisma. shirou has literally nothing aside from forced MC mojo.
>>117386717
>The three families couldn't decide how the Grail should be used
Which is the most amusing part. Considering that both Tokiomi and Rin have no idea what the grail really is is it safe to assume that since the beginning only the einzbern knew about Heaven's Feel? Zouken seems to know a lot about it but it doesn't really look like first hand knowledge.
The best "thematic" scene that managed to show Shirou's grow as a character really well in FSN was the nine lives scene in HF.
Other than that it just felt like Nasu never went far enough or just didn't manage to hit the spot well enough, UBW particularly felt like it could have done a lot more with the concept.
The idea of heroism itself isn't very explored unfortunately but the base is there which is why people can talk, argue and debate about it ad nauseam.
>>117387921
I liked his distortions in UBW.
I hope UFO spends more time on them.
>>117387777
Quads confirmed for truth.
F/Z has always been the superior work.
>>117387918
Thosaka's were politically connected new magic, the only one who had a clue was Zelretch and he skedaddled after the first ritual failed.
>>117386456
>"I failed the fall semester too."
The sad thing, is most people on FSN generals probably don't remember that.
>>117387960
>I liked his distortions in UBW.
It's only shown in a shallow way though, it's part of what should have been explored in a greater depth.
>>117387777
>7777
BASED
A
S
E
D
FSN fags BTFO
>>117387988
Exactly. Which I think could be done in the animu in some good visual ways. The extra scene with Ayako is proof of that.
Maybe have it happen through more school scenes before bloodfort is activated?
>>117386388
>Kariya and Rider are the only two good exclusive characters of FZ
Are you outside of your fucking mind?
>>117386023
I want to think that this is bait but then I see the response and people are actually have well worded responses.
But you're all wrong. You're all horribly wrong.
Stand aside, plebians
>>117388090
want to tell you you're wrong, but i have generally have no idea who you're accusing of being wrong... this is a sign i need to leave my pc and go outside.
>>117387921
What was wrong with UBW?
>That entire opening to HAI was spooked.
>>117388173
FZ is better than FSN. FZ is astonishingly consistent in terms of themes, pacing and attention to the source material. FSN, while pretty as hell, is an autistic mess.
>>117388213
Are you talking about FSN as a whole, or the adaptation?
>>117388213
and plotholes, anon
don't forget about those
There both shit.
>Fate/Zero is so deep and mature!
>Literally every major theme and development is taken directly from the outline of the story presented in F/SN, and most aren't fulfilled until F/SN
>>117388208
>Issei havin a sleepover with 3 bitches.
Top Alpha.
>>117388265
They're just faghags.
>>117388264
nothing in the nasuverse is deep and mature.
Fate zero was just better.
>>117388046
Do you have something to add or are you just going to be just another greentexter without an argument?
Iri and Waver are okay, however they are not on the same level of the others. Maiya, Kayneth and Sola are shit-tier. The other servants aren't explored deep enough, same as F/SN. Who is left?
>>117388288
Those certainly are opinions.
>>117386023
Of corse, the ideal clash is better portrayed in UBW. Kerry had no support for his ideal, he was edgy for the sake of beinf edgy.
FSN has a much better and cohesive concept.
Especially Shirou's character. His whole life being destroyed in the fire and being replaced by an ideal he adopted by seeing Kerry's face, him gaining the element and affinity "Sword", a tool used by others and Shirou's personality all being about being used by others, his only magic ability being projection due to the way he lived/his affinity, the greatness that is UBW as a manifestation out of his whole life and ideals, the battle with Archer and the ultimate rejection of that ideal in HF ...
F/Z was a great story, but the concepts weren't that well thought out.
>>117388325
Also it's not that there is anything wrong with F/Z, it simply isn't as exceptional in that sense as FSN is.
>>117388325
even accepting that that is true (which i don't), FSN has had alot more time to develop. its has a VN, an adaptation, a movie and is now getting a second adaptation. Fate/zero is just one anime series. they had a lot more space for this shit and keeping a story going.
>>117388238
The adaptation is where I say that its pretty as hell. As a whole, it can all be pretty nonsensical. Seriously, there's so much attention given to world building but a lot of the characterisations and plot are abysmal.
>>117388246
Fucking this. Imagine you know nothing about the Nasuverse and you go into this series new. What the fuck is "True Magic"? How is that different from what everyone else is doing? How the fuck does a servant summon a servant? Why don't they even bother to explain how that happens? And it's not a True Assassin? Then who the hell is True Assassin? What's the fuck is even the difference?
The fat that these questions even need to be asked mean FSN's plot is shit.But goddamn, Caster has such pretty lips.
>>117388325
That's just the concept.
The portrayal itself was mediocre unfortunately, I can barely remember the scenes that had any actual power
>>117388404
9/10 really had me going for a minute
>>117387777
Yeah, they're pretty retarded
>muh glorified porn
>I need 50 threads to shitpost in
>>117387543
It kinda had to work that way since FZ was pretty much about how much of a fuckup Kerry was.
See shows don't like going into depth about philosophies since it really is a lot of boring shit, and explaining it in would require a lot of exposition or otherwise showing a lot of examples. But with FZ you couldn't really show a lot of non extreme examples, since basically if Kerry had been a good utilitarian his answer wouldn't have been kill everyone. You can't actually get into that mindset and claim to get utilitarianism.
>>117388413
The entire point of the grail war is to achieve true magic; an other worldly miracle.
>>117388413
>What the fuck is "True Magic"? How is that different from what everyone else is doing? How the fuck does a servant summon a servant? Why don't they even bother to explain how that happens? And it's not a True Assassin? Then who the hell is True Assassin? What's the fuck is even the difference?
Literally all of this is either directly explained to the reader or can be easily inferred
Maybe the problem is more with you watching a shitty adaptation and basing your conclusions off of that rather than the original work
You're not even pointing out the actual bullshit in like Archer surviving to the end of UBW or the entire fight with Berserker in Fate route
>>117388325
I agree with you, but Kiritsugu had a cool concept with Severing and Binding too.
Sword is just easier to utilize as a concept.
>>117388413
>the series presents things and doesn't explain them until later, therefore it's shit
No anon, you are the shit.
>>117388480
Again, we're looking at this from the point of someone who's new. I don't know that. I'm not asking for these points to be presented to me through an exposition bomb or anything but don't just start throwing terms around and expect me to understand because "I should have played Tsukihime."
>>117388563
It's been a while, but wasn't this shit covered in like, the opening episodes of Zero?
>>117388558
>the series presents things and then makes up bullshit for why they worked later
Fixed
>>117388478
>Glorified porn
>BY NASU
>>117388518
>You're not even pointing out the actual bullshit in like Archer surviving to the end of UBW
I always just fanwanked this as Archer coming back as a Counter guardian. Gil was a pretty serious threat, so it was sufficient for one to be called.
He may not have had his memory of fighting in that particular Grail War, but he obviously still remembered most of the shit like Rin from his actual life.
>>117388563
I'll give you that point if you remember that FSN was written before FZ so they just did all this shit without even considering it in the first place.
>>117388413
I was talking about F/Z though. You know the series in which everyone knows who the enemy masters are and the guy with a league of invisible assasins sits on his ass along with the single Servant capable of taking out the rest of the cast simultaneously until the last episode.
Oh you can summon Cthulhu, lets be nice and let everybody else gather their party before the boss battle.
You have a magical item that makes your servant invincible to everything including divine intervention? Better keep it on you so you can do cool matrix moves.
Zero is the king of asspulls and it shows in the fact that it takes eaons for a single important character to die but mature means baby murder for edgy teenagers so it get toted as a masterpiece even as people ridicule F/SN for doing the same things but being less pretentious about it.
And are you seriously arguing that Zero had better exposition? I've heard people didn't realize magic was being kept a secret after watching that series.
>>117388563
>we're looking at this from the point of someone who's new
From someone who's both new and retarded if they think things that haven't been explained yet or the adaptation didn't bother to explain are "plotholes"
It's not valid criticism of the original work in any case
>>117388595
True Magic is referenced in other works before Fate/Stay Night, fucking retard.
>>117388518
Archer surviving can be explained away by independent action. It's a little sketchy, but I think it flies since we never really saw up to that point how far IA could get you.
>>117388325
That's the sort of thing that look great on paper but where the execution fails to shine through.
Fate for example could have been a great route to compare the idealism of Shirou vs Saber's resignation but it just fails to portray it in any interesting way and the only thing people remember about this route is Saber's being moe.
UBW itself is cool as a concept but despite being supposedly the Shirou/Archer's route Shirou himself seem to take a backseat, his characterization as a broken human with a broken ideal is pretty much never shown in any interesting way except for the fabled fight with Archer.
And everything after that is just rushed to hell and barely take account of that event.
HF is the most solid route in term of pure characterization for Shirou but the script still feel like it keep jumping around quite a bit.
And it feels most people didn't understand anything about his character arc in that route anyways since everyone seem to thing he rejected his ideal during the mind of steel choice which is frankly pretty stupid.
>>117388648
>I've heard people didn't realize magic was being kept a secret after watching that series.
How? They mention it in LN a couple of times.
>You have a magical item that makes your servant invincible to everything including divine intervention? Better keep it on you so you can do cool matrix moves.
It's not that great against pure melee types. Since it literally takes you to Avalon so Saber would just jump out and have to fight again, plus mana reqs.
>>117388678
>True Magic is anything you want it to be
BRAVO I'll asspull an explanation later, so don't worry.
>>117388518
I always assumed Archer died by Shiro's hand but later got resummoned as a Counter Guardian to stop the evil.
>>117388715
>UBW itself is cool as a concept but despite being supposedly the Shirou/Archer's route Shirou himself seem to take a backseat, his characterization as a broken human with a broken ideal is pretty much never shown in any interesting way except for the fabled fight with Archer.
>And everything after that is just rushed to hell and barely take account of that event.
I disagree. You see Shirou's slanted mind much earlier than that. His date with Rin was an entire reaction to her realizing there was something deeply wrong with him. It's explored much earlier than you think.
>>117388736
So basically what you're saying is, in any fiction, you would just like a great big infodump at the start to explain all future concepts before the characters even learn about them.
Because what clearly matters is what the audience knows and not how they are used in the story. It's completely fine if they are used as deus ex machina, as long as the audience knew about them from the beginning?
>>117388725
>I've heard people didn't realize magic was being kept a secret after watching that series.
How? They mention it in LN a couple of times.
because
>watching
>>117388789
I didn't write it was never shown, just that it wasn't shown in an interesting way.
Shirou's "problem" in UBW never feel like anything more than survivor guilt, HF and even Fate portray his bigger problem in a better way which is quite a shame
>>117386023
Yes, but that doesn't mean it better.
You don't really need any knowledge of the nasuverse to understand what archer meant. It basically went like this in the mind of not nitpickers secondary
>Oh archer said that caster can do something akin to "true" magic
>As in "faster", "stronger", "better". Basically Caster can cast some really op shit
>I see
>>117388856
>I didn't write it was never shown, just that it wasn't shown in an interesting way.
Well that's definitely an opinion. What do you have an issue with?
>>117388208
I was really fucking scared the entire time. That scene had the mood set really well.
>>117388744
Counter guardians don't work that way. If he was resummoned he would've been an event, not a being with personality.
But then why is Zero's anime so much better than Stay Night's?
>>117388815
>>117388882
The fact that it all felt extremely shallow.
When I see a good concept I'd like to see it explored in a good way, that's why as a fiction I consider FSN to be "not bad" rather than very good or great
>>117387226
So your saying logical decisions=good characters?
Cause that's really what I'm seeing from your arguments, which would be a piss poor understanding of human behaviour.
>>117388910
Because you enjoy a more serious atmosphere more, that's it.
>>117388856
I'd disagree UBW did a pretty good job.
>>117388933
Well again man, that's your opinion. I can't really respond to "I didn't find it interesting", or "It was shallow", unless you dig a little deeper.
>>117388518
If you were reading F/SN for the first time you wouldn't know about True Assassin either.
>>117388989
Thank you. An adaptation should be able to stand on its own merit, without needing the source material to offer anything more than a nice wink/nod to fans who have enjoyed it. It's what FZ did and what FSN fails to do.
Why is Archer such a weak servant?
>>117389129
Ufotable's making him out to be way more competent than Saber.
>>117388955
I think it's more than just that.
For me it has more to do with how Kiritsugu's actions and thoughts come across compared to anime Shirou.
We have no internalization from Shirou so far except for that quick Vietnam flashback.
In the VN we have these huge descriptions of Shirou being torn apart in fights and being at conflict with his own ideals.
It feels like Zero's scene translate much better to an animated medium because the scenes are concise and you understand the character's intent.
Stay Night has more to offer in that respect though, but it just doesnt shine through in either anime or movie.
>>117389161
>does no damage to berserker
>employs trickery to beat caster
>can't even kill a little boy
Weak.
>>117389065
>It's what FZ did
Actually it didn't and the entirety of the ending makes absolutely no sense. There are also a lot of plot points that from the point of view of a Zero only watcher go nowhere (the survival of Gilgamesh and Kotomine, The black mud and Angra Mainyu, Sakura and Zouken's future and so on).
I have friends that really disliked the ending because it really felt like a cheap plot device from their point of view.
>>117389204
>does no damage to berserker
Yeah that was bullshit and inaccurate, but he beat Caster, and held up better against Assassin than Saber was.
>>117389187
I don't know why Ufotable's avoided doing any internal monologues or narration.
>>117389230
How was it bullshit and inaccurate?
>grins after doing no damage
He was being pushed back by lancer as well, having his weapons continuously destroyed. Caster was able to get away even if he "let" her go, as he said she would have escaped anyway. We only saw a glimpse of him vs Assassin and Saber was doing alright at the start as well.
Most fourth HGW participants seemed like they actually wanted the goddamn grail.
>>117389187
>In the VN we have these huge descriptions of Shirou being torn apart in fights and being at conflict with his own ideals.
I agree about this and it must be a real pain for them to find a way to translate it into visual. The anime is already quite heavy as far as infodumps go, adding internal monologues would just make it harder.
I believe there's still a lot of time and the last episode was a very good exchange that showed not only Shirou's point of view but it also made it clash with a more cynical and realistic one. Too bad people are too focused on the "I hate Shirou" bandwagon to even care.
I've seen people calling the desire for peace in itself "idiotic" just because that's what Shirou talked about, it's amazing.
>>117389298
>How was it bullshit and inaccurate?
It was literally inaccurate. In the novel, Berserker had to block his attack because it was going to kill him. It was the entire catalyst to Illya leaving. Saber didn't take a life in the fight in the VN, either. The entire Berserker scene in the anime was actually a bit of a clusterfuck.
And it's explicitly stated by Caster he could have killed her.
>>117389298
>How was it bullshit and inaccurate?
Berserker had to turn and deflect it, he considered it a more dangerous threat than Saber in front of her.
Though to be fair there are so many little things in nasu's combat that seem almost irrelevant just to then turn important that I can't blame them for missing that part. For some people, Berserker deflecting it is what changed everything while in reality the atomic explosion was to me more than enough to show what he can do.
>>117388934
No I'm saying if a character agrees to a lose-lose scenario I expect them to have a reason for it. Kariya doesn't.
He is boldly agreeing to a plan in which he will die and a) succeeds birthing an evil demi-god or b) fails miserably for nothing.
This is not something I'd expect an actual person to do especially since he still has dozens of options to defy zouken, seek help etc. etc. None of which are explored- this character not only lacks any sense of self-preservation he doesn't seem to have any goals other than to be as miserable as possible.
If Zouken had at least tricked him by saying "I'll let her go if you become heri. Nope changed my mind fight the HGW instead or I'll kill you with the worms you just willingly swallowed." It would have made his motivations actually beilevable. Instead we get urobochid.
>>117389277
I dont think monologues really work that well in animated mediums.
There are smart, subtle ways to get around that, but for me, UBW hasnt delivered on that front and neither did Deen/Stay Night.
Fate doesnt really have the surrealism that say Eva had to rely on as grounds for internalization of it's characters.
>>117389358
The fact that Berserker took it head on is what annoys me. Like, if he was busy with Saber and it just hit him, I would probably have been fine with it, but no, he faced it directly and wasn't phased. I think it was to try and make him look cool or something, but it was dumb.
>>117389380
>a) succeeds birthing an evil demi-god
Not him but this is a bit of a shit argument. Nobody fucking knows about Angra Miyu
>>117389300
>wanting the grail
Why?
Heroes aren't attached to this world, only to the oaths they couldn't fulfill.Fuck I love that scene with Lancer trashtalking Gil
>>117389411
In retrospect it will probably make Gilgamesh look insanely powerful, as he rightfully is.
>>117389450
>Heroes aren't attached to this world, only to the oaths they couldn't fulfill.
Don't spout Archer's words like those are the only and absolute truth. He was specifically talking about him there, exactly like the part that they have no choice of being summoned.
Basically he was being angsty at the fact that there are class A and class B heroic spirits, he belonging to the B shitty tier.
>>117389310
But this is why Shirou comes off as a stupid character in the anime.
Simply because we only see his thoughts at face value.
Guess we'll just wait and see what UFO Table can do.
>>117389425
By giving Zouken the grail numbnuts
>>117389298
>>grins after doing no damage
I thought this was because he hit Shirou
>>117389469
Those were Lancer's words to Gil in Fate you fucking retard
>>117389450
Because it's the reason there's a war to begin with. And supposedly a device that can grant any wish, yet every other character in F/SN is like "yeah whatever".
>>117389525
And I still call bullshit. Nasu is inconsistent as shit.
>>117389524
It was supposed to be a combination of him of him hitting Berserker, Shirou, and Saber. It was him whipping his dick out and sending a big fuck you to everyone.
>>117389469
Read the spoilered part.
It was Cu trashtalking Saibah and Gil
So in terms of power rankings of the servants for this war what is the order?
>>117389525
>implying those aren't the same exact words archer said to shirou
Then is every single heroic spirit partecipating in a sort of comical game of pretend?
>So, you do have a wish for the grail, right Lancer? And you Archer? What about you Rider?
Of course
>Oh ok cool, what is it?
>Nah, just rusing you, we are forced as summons, we don't care shit for the grail
Are Fate/Extra and CCC fun games?
>>117389380
>He is boldly agreeing to a plan in which he will die and a) succeeds birthing an evil demi-god
Are you seriously getting on Kariya's shit for not knowing the Grail is corrupted? How the fuck is he supposed to know that?
I have a random question, isn't Shirou an incredibly strong human fighter? He is stronger than Kotomine who's already freaking insane.
>>117389641
What do you expect from a guy that can use magic and has a rank Z noble fartasm inside him?
>>117389641
>He is stronger than Kotomine
Untrue, Kotomine would've easily beaten him even while half dead, he had to stop because timelimits.
>>117389641
Kotomine got older and grailed.
>>117389602
Gil > Berserker > Saber > Lancer > Archer > Caster > True Assassin > Assassin
>>117389665
But a lot of people can use magic
>>117389677
>>117389680
I actually meant an adult Shirou who trained his projection magic. Wouldn't he be one of the strongest human characters?
>>117389641
Excluding the Fate route, Shirou by the end is pretty strong.
UBW Shirou will probably become a straight up beast since he got his RM unlocked a decade early.
>>117389613
Nah they still respond to the summon from their own free wil but Cu was saying that in his opinion Heroes don't desire the grail
Or he was talking about a second life during that scene I forgot
>>117386023
More Sakura = better
>>117389700
>Wouldn't he be one of the strongest human characters?
Bazett would shit on him
>But a lot of people can use magic
You forgot about the noble fartasm.
>>117389739
Not with one arm she won't
>>117389710
This is why I say that quoting single lines makes no sense because everyone has his opinion.
Lancer was saying that no hero would want another life on earth because they are not attached to it.
Archer says the exact opposite, that another life is the only thing they would possibly ask for besides for small kings.
>>117389759
Kuzuki then, or Arturia if she counts.
>>117389759
>implying she won't get a new one as part of her "unpayed employment" as Rin's pet ex-enforcer
>>117389567
Masters join the war to win the grail unless they get shanghaid into it. Servants are always "Whee breathing is fun! Oh I get to beat the shit out of people who won't break instantly!"
>>117389380
He made his decision moments after seeing a young girl, one he cares about immensely, get raped and tortured. To any normal person, witnessing something like that is agonizing beyond compare. It is no surprise whatsoever that he agreed to shitty terms if it guaranteed a shot at saving her, however small.
I don't want to get in an argument since anons who hate Kariya are just determined to warp his actions and characterization no matter what they're told, but I will say this: you're confusing Kariya's self-hatred and lack of self worth for him being stupid. Kariya grew up completely hating himself and never quite managed to fix that even after leaving Fuyuki, and Sakura being the one to take his place exacerbated the issue tenfold. He spent his childhood ridiculed by Zouken and Byakuya and internalized every bit of that. That's why he doesn't behave like someone with a whole lot of self-preservation instinct.
>>117389807
I never realized how similar lancer and gilgs look
like now that I'm looking at this picture I don't know how I could have missed it
>>117389823
Most heroes are pretty easy to satisfy
Tohsaka anus is pretty deep.
>>117389807
MOTHERFUCKING Lancer. That badass came in to rescue Rin, fucking bitchslapped Matou Shinji across the room (and admit it, you were fucking waiting for that shit to happen the entire route), and then mouthed off against the King of Heroes.
And as if that wasn't fucking enough, Kotomine used a command spell to make him Gae Bolg HIMSELF, piercing himself straight through the fucking heart, and what does Lancer do? Die like a little bitch?
FUCK NO
He fucking kills Kotomine Kirei; THE Kotomine Kirei. Now then, he's earned his rest, right? I mean, he fucked over a major villain despite having his heart stabbed by a fucking Noble Phantasm. It's enough, right?
Fucking WRONG!
Matou Shinji starts fucking with Rin again, and Lancer's like, "bitch, step the fuck away from my woman!" And this fucking half-dead servant scares that little fucker so much that he has no choice but to run away.
Finally, he makes his own funeral pyre to burn in, all while wondering what it would've been like to bang Rin just like she deserved.
As if everything else weren't already enough, the ashes of his pyre also dirty Gilgamesh, striking one last blow. His motherfucking funeral ashes cause the King of Heroes to suffer indignity. Even from beyond the grave, he pisses off that golden-haired faggot.
Holy shit, Lancer is awesome.
>>117389901
Takeuchi-sameface
plot reason would probably be demigod and 2/3 god
>>117389903
>F/SN : Has mapo tofu
>F/Z : Does not have mapo tofu
>>117389967
I'm seeing a pattern here
Anyone speak moon and willing to give a general gist of this?
>>117389985
This single panel has convinced me to read this shit.
It's prism Illya I get?
>>117386023
How about this:
Both are shit.
>>117389705
Nasu apparently said that Shirou would be at the level of Kiritsugu which never made sense to me considering how much stronger having unlimited NPs like Hrunting and Caladbolg would be compared to Time Alter and Origin Bullets
But then again,
>Nasu making sense
>>117390220
I could see Fate route Shirou reaching that. With everything he got in UBW though he'll probably outdo his dad by a fairly decent amount.
>>117390220
>Nasu
>making sense
>being consistent
>>117389881
I don't really hate Kariya he just embodies the worst part of Zero for me- his character is blatantly pandering towards fans of the original "here is something that relates Sakura to the plot even though we all know nothing comes of it" combined with Urobochi's signature diablos ex machina that uses a flimsy premise to make things as horrific as possible and to top it off his reationship to Tokiomi which is the bulk of his character is just a copy paste of Sakura and Rin's rivalry from Heaven's Feel.
He really seems like he was thrown in at last minute- his actual story if you take it as it is and don't try to overanalyze it is still plenty moving and original but compared to the rest of the cast it feels tacked on.
>>117386023
But F/Z is better written than FSN
>>117386489
>>117386588
not to mention untill he got his hands on grail shards sakura really was going to be the families "successor" meaning she was breading stock but still
>>117390394
F/Z has better writing quality
That doesn't make it more enjoyable or entertaining
Obviously, have some of the deepest lore.
EMIYA:
>I am the bone of my sword
体は剣で出来ている。(My body is made of swords)
>Steel is my body, and fire is my blood
血潮は鉄で心は硝子。(My blood is of iron and my heart of glass)
>I have created over a thousand blades
幾たびの戦場を越えて不敗。(I have survived through countless battles undefeated)
>Unknown to death
ただの一度も敗走はなく、(Not even once retreating,)
>Nor known to life
ただの一度も理解されない。(Not even once being understood.)
>Have withstood pain to create many weapons
彼の者は常に独り 剣の丘で勝利に酔う。(Always alone, on the hill of swords, intoxicated with victory)
>Yet, those hands will never hold anything
故に、生涯に意味はなく (Thus, this life has no meaning)
>So as I pray, unlimited blade works
その体は、きっと剣で出来ていた。 (This body, was surely made out of swords)
Shirou:
>I am the bone of my sword
体は剣で出来ている。(My body is made out of swords)
>Steel is my body and fire is my blood
血潮は鉄で心は硝子。(My blood is of iron and my heart of glass)
>I have created over a thousand blades
幾たびの戦場を越えて不敗 (I have survived through countless battles undefeated)
>Unaware of loss
ただの一度の敗走もなく (Not even once retreating)
>Nor aware of gain
ただの一度の勝利もなし。(Not even once victorious)
>Withstood pain to create weapons, waiting for one’s arrival
担い手はここに孤り 剣の丘で鉄を鍛つ。(The bearer lies here alone, forging iron on the hill of swords)
>I have no regrets. This is the only path
ならば、わが生涯に意味は不要ず。(Thus, this life needs no meaning)
>My whole life was unlimited blade works
この体は、無限の剣で出来ていた。(This body is made out of unlimited swords)
>>117390220
Nasu wasn't comparing how strong they are in a fight against each other but rather their aptitude and respective standings as magicians. When Kiritsugu was active as a hunter, he was renowned as an overall average magician who demonstrated amazing ability in one particular field (combat).
He's saying that Shirou will come to be the same way--someone who is ridiculously good in one area (Projection) but is otherwise unremarkable in all other fields of magic.
>>117390495
Does he garner that respect without people finding out about his reality marble? Cause if that shit goes public he's a prime target for sealing.
>>117390531
noone will assume he as a reality marble, for one thing the idea is almost absurd.
I don't understand this fanbase, what does secondary even mean
>>117390596
you didnt read the primary sources and get your impressions from anime adaptions and manga
>>117390585
Pretty sure he'll change a few minds if he whips it out at any point.
I'm just writing out loud I guess. If people ever properly found out about UBW he'd be way more infamous than Kerry.
>>117390495
Yeah I guess I took that out of context, but it always seems like Nasu tries to downplay Shirou's abilities, as he even states that Bazett has greater firepower than Shirou does which seems bizarre to me.
I could understand fighting tactics but firepower?
>>117390531
His RM would obviously remain a secret because of what you said, which is not a problem seeing as how he doesn't usually need to expand it. He presumably would just project things "normally" by bringing them out of UBW.
It's worth mentioning that Rin comes up with a scam in Hollow Ataraxia involving Shirou using his ability to try and project works of fine art in order to con art dealerships. In the same scene, she also mentions that his projections are good enough that trying to identify them as fakes via structural analysis would fail and that only the higher-ups in one particular department of the Clock Tower would have the skill to actually tell.
>>117390702
>>117390689
Probably downplays him because he's worried about making him seem too good or perfect.
>>117390464
>Yet, those hands will never hold anything (Thus, this life has no meaning)
and
>I have no regrets. This is the only path (Thus, this life needs no meaning)
Are my favorite part, paraphrases their differences well.
Is FSN the deepest VN in existence?
>>117390853
>Is FSN the deepest VN in existence?
No.
>>117390689
You're underestimating how scary Bazett is. She's at least as deadly an opponent as Kiritsugu was in his prime, considering she has magic, amazing hand-to-hand combat ability, literal years of experience fighting against all kinds of dangerous mages, and a goddamn Noble Phantasm at her disposal.
When Rin meets her for the first time in H/A, she notes that Bazett could have killed both her and Shirou working together if it was just a 1v2 with no Servants involved.
>>117390853
Yes.Especially when you're balls deep in Saber-chan.
>>117390853
As deep as Tohsaka's anus.
>>117390918
I understand she's incredibly powerful for an enforcer, I have read F/HA.
However, she is not capable of fighting servants head on like everyone seems to believe, as she was unable to do anything against Saber by herself and Lancer states he could win just fine if he didn't use his NP
She is capable of a decisive victory with her NP though, which makes her so great at killing servants especially when coupled with Avengers NP
That only really plays into effect once someone uses their trump card, which in Shirou and Archers case would be BP, and he wouldn't need that to fight her. I understand she can use Fraggle Rock without its Answerer abilities, but then it would be only D rank attacks compared to the downgraded B rank weaponry Shirou could utilize
>>117390430
>That doesn't make it more enjoyable or entertaining
But FSN is neither. It´s got such glaring pacing issues you could skim half of it and not miss anything.
>>117388289
Ryuunosuke had the correct idea, fuck the grail and watch the world burn.
>>117390220
Thing with Shirou is he really doesn't have enough mana to be pulling out a zillion different NPs all the time. He's really strong in theory, but in practice he is rather gimped by his capacity.
>>117391229
So long as he's got Rin with him, he should do alright.
>>117386023
Riddle me this. Kotomine has always be cherished like some kind of genius-made character, but comes out that his motivations are "I'm evil".
why people like him so much? because some witty dialogue? for Wakamoto?
>>117391398
>Jouji Nakata
>Nakata Jouji
>Mapo Tofu
>YOROKOBE
>YUETSU
>Church on the Hill
Among other things.
>>117391398
He is a bit overrated and only become a good character in HF but he isn't bad
The two aren't comparable.
>>117391398
Your average villain in Japanese cartoons is usually either a pussy who was abused by his parents/bullied by the other kids as a child, a fucking cardboard cutout with as much moral ambiguity as Skeletor, or just so poorly and inconsistently characterized that his motivations are indecipherable or nonexistent.
Kirei is none of these things and also happens to be cool as fuck, which is why he is a compelling and interesting character.
>>117391418
Yeah it was Nakata, sorry
>>117391398
What's wrong with a character "just being evil"? Such characters can be good since that just simply works at times. Kirei is a sadist and gets enjoyment from the pain and suffering of others because he's a twisted fuck. No more to it. We like him because he's Kotomine Kirei, the badass fake-priest who has a badass voice, etc. And I personally just tend to like classical villains.
>>117391398
That, and some really great scenes.
Regarding motivation: he's the anti-shirou who looks like he does evil for the sake of it in UBW and Fate.
But in HF his motivation is better than that, he's looking for answers to the question can something be born evil?
Birthing all the world's evil would prove to him that yes, one can be born evil and has a place in God's world. This directly clashes with Shirou's view that saving people can only be good. How can you save something inherently evil?
>>117391398
His character is interesting, people says he's evil-born, but I'm opposed to that idea. You can see how much he struggles to finds a place in the world, he's not born-evil, it's just he never found a reason to be good. In the end, the only thing that got him pleasure was people's suffering, and he's willing to save others just for his amusement, that's really interesting.
He's an evil fuck.
>>117391582
>>117391528
In Fate he was a pretty boring final boss, in HF he is more interesting and has some good speeches but it felt pretty subdued compared to the rest of the shit that was going on in that route, it didn't felt like he had any real time to shine until the very end
anyone else thinks that the anime adaptation is spoonfeeding the secondaries about the identity of archer?
>>117391659
his showdown against assassin was pretty amazing coupled with his makiri domination.
>>117391659
I preferred him inFate/Zero
>>117391664
It's not like fucking everybody knows that Archer is Shirou by now, so it's pointless to try and hide it.
>Secondaries
Heh.
>>117391664
They have hints, we had them too in the story, albeit through other means that they can' t easily show in an animation (The whole "I can't approve of him", "I hate him by instinct" parts). It feels a bit heavy to me too because we already know about it, but I don't think it's too obvious yet.
>>117391688
Yeah the showdown was cool but I'm mostly talking about his personality/role.
Yeah it was nice seeing him fight rather than simply throwing some mud like in Fate though
Do you fags honestly think Fate is deep in anyway? Shit, you are worse than the Evafags in terms of pretentiousness
>>117391664
>obvious two Rin pendants
>zooms right into the pendant on the ED
>Archer makes all the same gestures as Shirou
Yes
It's only going to get worse when Shirou starts projecting and using Kanshou & Bakuya
Hindsight is 20/20 though, it's probably not that obvious for first viewers as with most twists.
>>117391733
Nothing is deep. If person Y thinks something is deep, person X will call him pretentious, and vice-versa, thusly, nothing is really deep.
>>117391808
>this autist logic
Bravo. Maybe try reading a book every once in a while.
>>117391664
"I can't figure out what's so important about the pendants"
"How did Shirou know Archer was shooting?"
-A couple of things my friend has said (he has only watched F/Z).
>>117391664
People don't really think that hard about potential foreshadowing while reading. Especially something this long. It's usually reflected back on afterwards.
However with an episode based show, you have a week to take in and reflect each episode.
>>117389903
I agree that Fate and UBW had a shitty final battle. Unlike most of /a/ I liked the slice of life aspect of the VN and I prefer slow pacing. I enjoyed Fate and UBW but both ending disapointed me, it really suck when you're done reading after 20 hours and the last few hours leave you with a bad impression.
Without HF's strong ending F/SN would be forgettable.
>>117391980
UBW's ending fight was the completion of Shirous character arc. People might rag on it, but it was completely necessary for the story to the work.
>>117392009
>UBW's ending fight was the completion of Shirous character arc
Except the ending barely had any focus on him.
The final battle with Gil was pretty bad with the entire fight in UBW lasting like 10 lines and absolutely nothing interesting introspection-wise, everything after that was just Archer/Rin with a bit of Saber
>>117392048
It could have used some expansion, but additional introspection wasn't wholly needed. After the fight with Archer, Shirou reaffirmed his ideal to want to be a hero. That's all well and good, but up to that point, his greatest accomplishment was beating himself. Shirou had to face a nigh insurmountable challenge to prove he had what it took to follow his dream. Gilgamesh worked great thematically. The wannabe hero, the "faker", taking on the King of Heroes.
Also the epilogue scene after the fight was great.
>>117392048
I think you were just spoiled on Shirou v Archer because there was no way for Gil's fight to live up to it after.
Though there was the whole faker vs real thing going on. Which gave some of the most memorable lines in the whole VN.
This is the problem with you weeaboo fucks.
Since when does deep equal good?
>>117392125
Pic related for further emphasis. Shirou struggled throughout the route dealing with the fact that his ideal was "fake", an imitation. His fight with Gilgamesh further proved that while he may be an imitation, he could surpass the original.
>>117391867
Book are terrible though.
>>117389950
Tfw lancer will never hit you with his gay bulge. Why was even born
>>117392181
Maybe you could ask your mother after I'm done with her.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZHvd0ks7Es
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWPwfQcPS5s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pD_imYhNoQ4&t=12s
Who has the source on this?
>>117386023
Zero panders to edgy teenagers after all, just like madoka.
>>117389903
Urobuchi has stated that in canon, Waver and Rider from Fate/Zero have definitely fucked off-screen
berserker/kariya too.
>>117393226
I'm sure COOOL and MUH JEANNE fucked.
>>117393226
>>117393321
Fuck off fujoshi scum. Stay in your containment threads.
>>117389903
The Naruto part was unneeded to pass as a serious argument.
>>117393096
Childcare is War. Look it up on EXHentai in the non-hentai category.
Also here is the sequels. First read the doujins, and then later this: http://finality.dasaku.net/?cat=1186&paged=2
>>117393579
It's a fact that Naruto would have done everything Shirou did.
The people in this thread that will go out of there way to parrot complaints about F/SN's three routes, just to delude themselves into believing F/Z is a more compelling story with better concepts disgusts me.
It can basically be summed up as the Edgy Prequel. Congratulations! It wasn't TOTALLY shit, by virtue of being a prequel! It still doesn't have any genuine value without Fate/Stay Night. Kerry is only interesting to see how brutal he is in comparison to Emiya Shirou and how similar he is in function to Archer.
I mean what the fuck? A canyon of shit compared to a shallow puddle of ambrosia? That's the analogy you come up with to compare F/SN to F/Z? Are you serious? F/SN had its flaws, but overall it's a much better story than F/Z. And if you're only examining one route, it's more compact too.
>>117393842
Yeah, it's more like a shallow pool of vomit.
