I appologize for responding to this dead thread from earlier but I've been gone all day.
In episode 10 of Index a sister shoots Accelerator with a high powered sniper rifle. She takes into account Kentucky Windage before shooting him but he is able to return the bullet exactly through the barrel she fired from.
This is utterly and completely bananas retarded. It's so stupid that even someone like me who has only had a couple of physics classes can understand why. You guys simply aren't realizing the problem.
Imagine two sisters both firing two bullets at Accelerator at the same time (close to the same time anyway). The first is using a high powered military grade rifle. The second is using a cheap hunting rifle purchased at Sears.
The first sister is firing from 21 blocks away, she must take into account both Kentucky Windage and the Coriolis effect to strike her target. The second sister is firing from only 1 block away because she has a cheap rifle but she can ignore the Coriolis effect at such a close distance although she must still consider the wind. The sister with the high powered sniper rifle shoots first followed closely by the sister with the cheap rifle from Sears. Both bullets strike Accelerator at the same time an inch apart high up on his back. The problem is that bullets don't magically contain information on where they were fired from. The only things a bullet 'knows' is how fast its traveling and in what direction.
Now all I took into account was Kentucky Windage and the Coriolis effect but other factors such as gravity and air time also play a part. The first bullet will lose say, 40% of its energy, the second bullet will lose say, 10% of its energy due to travel time. For Accelerator to hit both shooters directly from where they fired he would have to know (without seeing, they shot him from behind) exactly how much extra energy to put into each bullet that was lost in flight, exactly how much higher each bullet must have been fired to account for gravity, in which direction they were originally fired while the Earth spins away at 1000 miles per hour to the East, and how much the wind acted on them while in flight.
Remember neither bullet contains this information. All the bullets 'know' is what direction they're currently going in and how fast and no amount of super calculation on Accelerator's part will give him this missing information.
The writer fucked up by making the sister worry about Kentucky Windage but not making it at all a factor for Accelerator. Sure, I'm bringing physics into a show about magic and espers but the writer started it.
This means that in order to strike the sister who fired the sniper rifle at him Accelerator is not a vector control guy. He's magical Return to Sender man! Fire a bullet at me? RETURN TO SENDER. Drop a bomb on my head RETURN TO SENDER. Hit me with a lightning attack? RETURN TO SENDER. Fuck vectors!
This means that in order to fight Accelerator all the sister needs to do is fire her rifle and move 8 inches to the left. Magical Return to Sender man will end up sending the bullet flying harmlessly 8 inches to her right. Sure she won't hurt him but she can continue firing at him until he gets tired or makes a mistake.
This also makes every thing else Accelerator does for the rest of the show absolutely retarded because he can't control vectors at all, he can only magically Return to Sender.
And it looks cooler that way. Problem solved.
>Raildex
>physics
Please don't.
>>117326582
>>117326633
>Not knowing Accelerator's crazy calculation ability
>Not knowing that Esper powers warp reality to force powers to work the way the user thinks they should work
>Not knowing that Accelerator's power is automatic and doesn't require any effort on his part
>Not knowing Accelerator's calculations don't rely on information from his senses
Also it's Raildex for fuck's sake. Delving into this series's "science" will only drive you mad.
Unrelated: How would the Sister move to the left in the time it takes for the bullet to hit Accelerator and return? Bullets be fast yo.
>>117326832
I'm more bothered by when Accel is expositioning his powers, listing off many things he can control with his vector manipulation, but nothing he lists are actually vectors; they're scalars. It's like the dumb fuck failed 9th grade physics.
>>117326582
This is Accelerator we're talking about here. the same guy who can kick a building 35 block across the city to hit another building.
>>117326582
>>117326633
You're an idiot.
Accelerator's power is essentially control over directional force. Whatever he touches, he can accelerate its movement in whatever direction he wants. It's not quite "vector control" like the series says it is because he can control heat as well, but that's basically the gist of it. So if he touches a still object like a rock? He can forcefully send it flying in any direction.
His power is automatically set to reflect things, hence his auto-redirection. So if you shoot a bullet at him, that bullet will be automatically reflected.
The reason the bullet few back into the barrel of the sniper rifle is because of rule of cool. That's literally it. It's also the reason swords go "SCHWING" in movies at the slightest movement, because it's cool, and not because that's what actually happened.
You put all that thought into absolutely nothing. Way to waste your time.
>>117327129
He does control vectors though. It's just that also controls scalars as well.
"Vector control" sounds cooler than "vector and scalar control".
What he really controls is the concept of directional force
>>117326633
> he can't control vectors at all
Eh, he can. At one point he actually fires a gun at himself because his vector control calculations are more accurate than his aim.
>>117328731
He's just being an idiot.
>>117328761
That's the authors fault.
>>117326832
>How would the Sister move to the left in the time it takes for the bullet to hit Accelerator and return? Bullets be fast yo.
Travel time at extreme distances can still be a second or two.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u_F_EsWk_s
>>117328800
His entire argument came from his taking issue with how the reversing the bullet's trajectory sent it back into the gun barrel.
Who the hell takes that much issue from something like that? Sure it's inaccurate, but if I took issue every single time something like that happened in fiction, I would never be able to enjoy any form of fiction, ever.
>>117328606
I wish I could understand any single bit of that mathematical notation. It makes me feel uneducated...
This whole entire thread is bait.
>>117326582
>high powered sniper rifle
god damn I can't take this seriously
holy fuck
time to go back to /k/. I'm an idiot for expecting japs to actually understand how calibers work
>>117328954
Why? It's all bullshit.
>>117326633
>Baawww esper powers violate entropy.
The weakest character in the show has the ability to maintain an object at constant temperature.
>>117328800
>>117328822
>>117328899
>8800
>8822
>8899
Screw vector control; apparently RNJesus is ITT.
>>117327129
While temprature may be measured as a Scalar, thermal energy is just particles vibrating.
The individual particles have vectors, and accelerator can manipulate them.
>>117326582
>The problem is that bullets don't magically contain information on where they were fired from
They do if Accelerator's personal reality say they do.
>>117329024
>weakest
At least she's a Level 1.
>>117329072
No. Stop.
The reason the bullet flew back into the barrel was because it seemed cool to the animators. That's literally it.
Both of you are wrong about how Accelerator's powers work.
The worst part is that this is still the best thread we've had in a while.
Can accelerator only change the direction of a vector or is he also able to change the magnitude?
>>117329073
Still, even her "useless" power is already raping thermodynamics.
Accelerator being able to magically reconstruct the path of a bullet and send it exactly back to where it came from (reversing entropy) is no more absurd.
Couldn't you work backwards by knowing the type of ammunition used based on its composition and shape, and thus its initial velocity when fired from a gun? Then you could calculate all of these values to compensate the loss of energy due to friction and reflect the bullet back to where it came from.
accelerator comes of as a mary sue -ish character to me, quite simply. sure, calculation and so on. but you cant calculate what you are unaware of.
firing sniper rifle from afar takes many factors into account, all of which are obvious to the shooter, few of which are decipherable by the target. as pointed out, there is curvature, windage, gravity and so on.
assuming perfect conditions (no wind etc) you still have to "lob" the bullet, and since the target can in no way be aware of the current load you were using, calculating a trajectory based simply on force of impact and/or bullet weight is completely irrelevant. the shooter could have been at 100m with a weak load, or at 2,475m with a stronger load etc.
you get one shot to automatically "reflect", but there is literally a 3+ km linear target area of possible sources, at the very least. taking all other factors discussed into account we get a three dimensional target are of many kilometers per side, rendering automatic reflection of sniper bullets into a game of random chance. the shooter could essentially be anywhere.
again, even with the greatest calculation capacity in the known universe, you can not calculate what you do not know.
as such i would say kuroko could easily kill accelerator by teleporting a rock into his head, since he can not reasonably comprehend the vectors involved in such an act. and if he could, then he should also be able to teleport himself.
so again, accelerator comes off as simply a mary sue-ish character to me and does the whole series a great disservice as such imo. i dont like it and pretend i never saw it.
>>117329235
It's not instant. It's just really really really really fast. His brain starts doing the calculations once the object enters his AIM field.
>>117329235
Again, Uiharu can maintain any object she touches at a constant temperature.
Both of them are violating the laws of thermodynamics.
>>117329014
Actually as somone who is actually studying a Bachelor of Mathematics, the equations look pretty legit.
>>117329235
Okay, look. Here's how it works.
Accelerator's auto-redirect is AUTOMATICALLY set to redirect anything that touches his AIM field. The calculations are instant because he's basically constantly doing the same thing over and over. Anything and everything that touches his AIM field gets the same treatment. The only things that are let in are things Accelerator allows; there's a whitelist filter that allows things like air and light through.
The reason the bullet returned to the barrel of the rifle when it was redirected wasn't due to any calculations. Accelerator was indeed unaware of the bullet; it was redirected solely because it touched his AIM field. The reason it returned to the barrel with pinpoint accuracy was SOLELY because the animators thought it would be cool. That is literally the entire reason that happened.
You people are seriously overthinking this shit.
>>117329572
>The reason it returned to the barrel with pinpoint accuracy was SOLELY because the animators thought it would be cool.
Well, that and esper powers in this 'verse work as their wielders imagine them to, so Rule of Cool is literally in effect in the setting.
>>117329653
No. That isn't how it works at all. Espers only have the powers they're given. They can't change the way their abilities work just because they wish for it really hard. Despite what you seem to believe, there is an internal set of rules involved.
Accelerator can't do that shit, stop saying he can.
>>117329572
im not really overthinking it, thats just a cursory glance and if it cant hold up to that there is little hope.
i just pointed out why its stupid and why i consider accelerator to be a mary sue character. that shit messes with my suspension of disbelief and will keep me from enjoying the show.
suspension of disbelief require there to be some sort of rules as to how stuff works in the fictional universe, otherwise you end up with characters that can basically do anything, including reviving from the dead. and unless that is the main point of the show (e.g. kill la kill, hellsing, etc, but even those had defined rules), then it will break my suspension of disbelief and this is what i take objection to, and why i really really dislike accelerator and think of him as some sort of emo teen fantasy (the "infinity+1" thing, essentially).
so i guess what i am saying is it is crappy writing and crappy character design at its core really. hardly enjoyable and hardly "cool". the rest is just to point out why it is so crappy.
>>117329979
First off, capitalize. It's hard to take you seriously.
Second, there are indeed rules. Your inability to understand those rules doesn't mean they don't exist.
>>117329979
The reflecting the bullet perfectly at that range was JC staff animation
Kuroko can't kill accell
she could probably kill the rest of the level 5s, but not accell since the actual source material explicitly states he is immune to teleported attacks
>>117329198
Meaningless question since there is no certainty any power Accelerator demonstrates is governed by constant rules, unless you accept that the rules shaping creative license behave with a sort of constancy, which I do.
Accelerator has one of the most broken powers ever.
The author messed up bad when he tried to explain it using physics and math, but its pretty obvious he cant into those things since his shrodinger-chocolate explanation of how ESP work.
That said, he is the embodiment of badass for the show, marysue as you like, to the point he had to be crippled to become manageable by the story.Last but not least, lets not forget all those vector quantities the thankfully he doesn't know are vectors: universe curvature, minkovsky space vector, every function(as a limit on the continuum for the number of components), and anything that transforms as a vector
>>117330277
>she could probably kill the rest of the level 5s
Nah. In a straight fight, the #3 would win. Even Awaki's no match for her.
Teleporting shit into the #2 is completely meaningless. He's basically living goo now.
And the #7 could probably survive whatever Kuroko shoots into him.
>>117330854
Mikoto is still flesh and blood, and she has no defense that could really stop Kuroko from killing her
Pre powerup Kakine would also likely be fairly simple to kill
Gunha is a wildcard but you could bisect him or decapitate him or plant a grenade in him
Kuroko and Awaki can basically kill everyone on the science side if they aren't expecting it
>>117330919
The other anon is right. Awaki who is a much stronger teleporter than Kuroko was scared shitless of Mikoto. The difference in powerlevel is too great. Teleporters are shit tier in this universe.
>>117330919
The same goes for the Level 5s.
As I said, in a straight fight, Mikoto would win. She states outright that Awaki wouldn't be able to beat her, and Awaki agrees with her assessment.
Don't underestimate the Level 5s.
>>117326582
Is there any solid, onscreen evidence that Misaki's mental out works if you cover your head in tin foil? I don't think that there's any evidence that tin foil won't work.
>>117331015
could awaki insta kill Mikoto if she didn't know Awaki was there
>>117331126
Mikoto has a huge radar around her. It is impossible to sneak up to her unless she's sleeping.
>>117331126
Dunno. There might be some bullshit like Mikoto's EM waves throwing off Awaki's calculations or something.
The problem here is that's very likely. Kamachi purposely nerfed teleporters pretty severely. Let's say that calculations are SP. Teleporters would require more SP than anyone to perform even the smallest action. They require absolute pinpoint accuracy in their calculations or else they risk fucking up very badly. And it's really easy to throw off their concentration, preventing them from using their powers at all. Not to mention, we know that Accelerator's powers protect him from teleports, but who knows who else might have defenses of their own?
Kamachi does not treat teleporters kindly at all. It would not surprise me in the slightest if Mikoto turned out to have some sort of defense against teleporters.
>>117329235
Good thing he's has been nerfed and has become ridiculously incompetent even in his own manga
>>117326582
http://toarumajutsunoindex.wikia.com/wiki/Esper
>>117327129
In the beggining he thought that his power was "Reflection", he only founds out that he can control vectors when he is forced to create plasma by Touma
Man, is it so hard to understand that author don't actually give a damn about physics and simply write what they think it's cool?
>>117332871
Fair enough, but they still look like the clueless idiots they are when they use sciency mumbo jumbo without knowing shit about it.
Suspension of disbelief can only do so much, but then again what does the target audience (ie NEETs) know about anything?
>>117333066
>what does the target audience (ie NEETs) know about anything?
You also forget that most LN readers are, like, middle schoolers. I get that Japan's math and science curriculum is probably more advanced than Murrica's, but they're still young (immature) enough to appreciate SCIENCE. And the older readers are only there for the cute girls.
>>117333066
Well it is known that Kamachi writes the magic side better, the science side has "weak" writing because he kinda spits in physics' face (though he can get away with it because magic science), I mean the first time I've read Misaka's lightning spear going at lightspeed I laughed for 5 minutes straight.
>>117333186
>lightspeed
What? No. This never happens. Even Kamachi's not stupid enough for that.
That's a metaphor. You don't normally take these things literally.
>>117333380
Trust me
>She released a lightning spear from it.
The spear of purple electricity moved forward at the speed of light and held enough destructive force to knock someone unconscious.
>>117333663
Again, you're taking that too literally.
To a human being's senses, the speed of lightning and the speed of light are virtually the same thing anyway.
>>117333752
He literally says that it moves at the speed of light, it's just a case of bad translation/bad writing.
>>117333793
Dude, really?
So if someone says "I'll be there in a flash", you take their words literally too? Or "he got here in the blink of an eye"?
>>117333858
The difference is "a flash" is not an actual unit of time, whereas "lightspeed/the speed of light" has/is a definite speed and in this particular situation matches the common misconception that lightning/electricity travels at the speed of light
>>117333897
Whatever, man.
As for me, if I ever see the words "speed of light", I know that 90% of the time, it's not something to be taken literally. Maybe you should look up what "metaphors" are.
>>117333186
>>117333380
>>117333663
>>117333752
>>117333793
>>117333858
>>117333897
>>117333935
This exchange made me laugh 5 minutes straight
Geez guys it's a damn light novel
>>117333935
Maybe you ought to, since you keep using "metaphor" when you mean "hyperbole"
>>117333973
I take my vietnamese pictographics very seriously
>>117329725
>They can't change the way their abilities work just because they wish for it really hard.
But they can change the magnitude of their ability and the way it works by working hard. Misaka was a level 1, at that time she could probably only make sparks and nothing more.
Let's say two people are playing tennis.
First Case: The first player hits the tennis ball to the second player. The second player is like Accelerator and hits the ball so it returns along the same vector with the same force simulating a perfectly elastic collision. The ball hits the net without going over because due to wind resistance the ball is traveling much slower than it was when it was originally hit.
Second case: Assume the same conditions as the first case until the second player hits the ball. The second player somehow knows how long or how far the ball traveled before hitting it. The second player somehow hits the ball so it will return with the exact same angle and velocity as the first players hit. The ball will return to it's point of origin but it will not follow the exact same path as the first player's hit. The two paths are not symetrical although they are horizontal reflections. This means that the first player's hit and the return will NOT have the same angle.
It's a show about magic teenagers. Taking it this seriously is some amusing new form of autism.
>>117334821
Taking stuff seriously and asking for coherence are different things altogether. No one would be pissed if he had simply wrote "advanced scientific discoveries" as an explanation for ESP, as he did for magic(aint gonna explain shit), but nooooo, lets talk out of my ass instead about stuff i know nothing about!
Second case addendum: Assume the second case but the second player is somehow able to generate force on the ball after it leaves his racket to counteract the original air resistance as the ball traveled to him. Further assume that they are playing badminton instead of tennis. The birdie will not be able to return to it's point of origin because the drag coefficient for the original trailing edge of the birdie is completely different from it's original leading edge. The second player would need to apply radically different force to the birdie to have it follow the same path and velocity profile on the return. While theoretically possible, it brings into question if this sort of control is possible what is preferable about returning the birdie to it's point of origin along the same path at the same speed. Why not move it to a point along the original vector and "railgun" it back? The calculations for such an act would not be any more difficult but the results would be radically different.
Third case: Assume the second case and that returning the birdie as a perfect reflection is preferable. Assume that the first player has a headwind blowing as he hit the ball. The second player returns the ball in a perfect reflection but the ball is out because it has a tailwind acting on it that the second player couldn't account for in his perfect reflection because it did not exist when making the calculation of the hit. The only way to make these adjustments is to not only exert force on the birdie after it leaves his racket but also to receive sensory input from the birdie after it leaves his racket.
Assertion 1: It is generally accepted that Accelerator has a range of influence that restricts his area of effect. The limitations of his range would suggest that he can only act upon objects within a specific proximity. In order for his power to work as demonstrated he would need to have sensory capabilities along with processing and storage capacity of an undefined time and proximity of his surroundings. He also needs to exert force on objects after they leave his immediate area of effect. This suggests that his power can act upon objects after they leave his area of affect for an undefined duration.
Assertion 2: Objects cease to be affected by Accelerator although it is unknown if this is a function of time or proximity. Otherwise Accelerator would continue to exert force on objects without end.
Conclusion: Accelerator like other Espers have unparalleled sensory, processing, storage abilities along with the ability to affect matter and energy. However, these powers are pigeonholed into childish, simple concepts with arbitrary limitations that should no logically exist given their stated capabilities. The only real conclusion that can be drawn is powers and limitations are completely arbitrary and the mechanics are hand waved in with throwaway lines about processing power and My Personal Reality.
tl;dr
IT'S MAGIC BITCH I DON'T HAVE TO EXPLAIN SHIT!
>>117329361
Could Uiharu turn a steam engine into a perpetual motion machine by maintaining the boiler at a constant temperature? Or would having to be in physical contact with the boiler burn her hands?
Can her powers work through really thick insulating gloves?
What about accelerator constantly reversing the vector of a lever connected to induction magnets so it keeps flipping and generating power?
Actually, now that I think about it, could he manipulate the vectors of his cells to produce ATP without eating or breathing?
>>117337721
BiriBiri would probably make more energy without needing any sort of troll physics.
At any rate academy city already gets it's power from renewable sources, there is no need to exploit it's esper population in that way.
Index III when? It has been too long.
>Touma will never wear a powersuit, not a Powered Suit like HsPs-15, but a full body suit that molds around the body, form fitting, and in a fashionable and customizable color
>Touma will never dominate opponents using it and not be ragdoll anymore that would force him to rely on people
>>117338826
>Touma will never get a buff
>>117338878
>>117338937
Touma already made a point in WW3 that he doesn't rely on that power. After NT9 he might've changed his mind though.
>>117326582
What part of Vector Manipulation do you not understand? Vector or Manipulation?
>>117338665
When Miki stops being a faggot.
>>117341376
JC Stuff teased a new project they will work on after the HO anime.Index S3 never, its Blood Sign.
>>117341521
Really? When was that? You're giving me false hopes, anon.
That faggot Miki did announce something related to Index due March though, didn't he?
>>117341628
Yeah, there is nothing with JC Stuff, but Miki did annouced something. But why wait March for Index 3 and announce HO on the 10th anniversary of Index? He doesn't live his life correctly and needs a punch in the face.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
You're not seriously trying to apply real world science to an anime, are you? just because the anime is about "science" doesn't mean shit. For crying out loud steins gate made a time machine out of a microwave and tv.
>>117341911
they only made a future gadget, anon
>>117328606
>>117328954
>>117329014
>>117329504
well its 2. semester physics electro dynamics a bit of maxwell and farady, what it means is accelerators manipulation does not alter the field misaka creates
>>117329114
>implying personal reality can be wrong
You fuckers are missing the most basic point about what makes an esper an esper. They are reality warpers who say fuck you to traditional physics. Why do you think Mikoto doesn't literally melt when she fires her own railgun? Because in her own twisted mind her own abilities do not affect her.
>>117343254
This. Abilities on the science side basically come down to "it's personal reality, I don't have to explain shit".
Ironically, magic is approached very scientifically and has a very fleshed out system.
What always bothered me more, is a middle schooler girl's ability to program in binary at the speed of a PDA's processor.
But you raise a legit point, if we don't count that it's fucking magic to begin with. But yeah, these bullshit abilities do not help my immersion either.
>>117344485
>Ironically, magic is approached very scientifically
I think the story is ass backwards to begin with.
In short: the scientific espers got their powers inherently, and magicians reproduced it to even the odds.
Wouldn't it make more sense for magic to come out of nowhere, and science to replicate the same effects, by taking reality apart and rebuilding it as they see fit?
>>117326582
>>117326633
Accelerator stopped the rotation of the earth for a few seconds to redirect all those <insert science term here> and throw a whole building into the the enemy fortress. Accelerator's ability isn't limited to redirect, he can manipulate all sorts of direction, be it scalar or vector. His ability is only limited by his imagination, which means the more he figures out how to apply it to everything, the more powerful he becomes.
tl;dr: it's a bullshit power similar to magic, I ain't gotta explain shit!
>>117346262
Weren't the esper powers created and distributed by Crowly using a powerful magic spell or something?
>>117346470
To be honest, I haven't finished the animu yet and haven't started reading the books yet, but this was the short explanation that someone (I think Stiyl) gave in the first Index animu season. And it sounded really wrong.
>>117346721
The AC esper were created to reproduce the natural ones (like Gunha), an magicians.
Magicians created magic to bring themselves to the level of saints, natural espers, and freaks like Fräulein.
So it's kind of science / natural order > magic > science
>>117347094
Well, it's not the worst-written-scenario then, I really should get down to reading it, but i want to finish the remaining episodes first, now that i've started watching it.
>>117347246
To further explain thing, in the beginning there were natural espers like Gunha, saints, and various other superpowered things like Fräulein and vampires walking around. Normal people were jealous of their powers that they were given by birth, so they created magic and idol theory to match them and get powers of their own through hard work.
Eventually, a magic god named Crowley comes along and hates magic. He thinks everyone is stuck in the past with the current system and wants to move them into the future. People don't take kindly to him, and they manage to "kill" him.
Turns out he is saved by Heaven Canceller, and he goes on to found Academy City. Here he uses brainwashing, drugs, and various other shit to create manufactured espers. He creates them because he needs their AIM fields to manifest Awaiss and his artificial creations (like Kazakiri) which he will use to destroy the magic side as we know it. He will also use them to turn Academy City into an artificial heaven. He wants to destroy religion and magic and basically start over as himself as the god figure.
>>117348010
Yea that sounds cool, I've picked up scraps of that from the anime, so it makes sense.
Seems a bit overblown for my taste, but the lesbian undertone is an excuse for everything, os might as well stick around for the whole ride.
>>117348290
The biggest problem with the anime is they cut out the explanations and some of the internal dialogue of Touma and shit, so it's a bit confusing if you only read the anime.
And of course a lot of this stuff is covered in SS novels and shit that wouldn't be touched til like, Index 3, 4 or 5
