Which one is the true Evangelion of anime?
What a superb trash thread, OP. You can be proud of yourself.
>meme show with maybe one cute girl
>top quality show starring numerous waifus
The choice is clear.
>>142459189
madoka
>>142459280
Well said
>>142459189
>show that had a gigantic societal impact and is still hotly debated now, 20 years after it aired
>shitty Kamen Rider Ryuki ripoff written by a hack
If only you would've actually tried and putPenguindrumup against Evangelion
>>142459349
>Rebuild-trash
>>142459280
The title of "Evangelion of anime" is determined by waifus?
>>142459280
I agree, Madoka is full of waifus. Evangelion only has Rei.
>>142459189
>>142459529
Yes.
>>142459409
>penguindrum
>>142459692
>responding to namedropping a work of art with an image from a work of people who don't know what art even means
Good job showing your pleb tastes and love for superficiality
>>142459601
And here I thought it was about psychology.
>>142460551
>>142460551
You think Nips cared about the psychological aspect? Heh, I'm laughing at you. Nips only cared about the waifus and the omni-pandering. That's all there was to it. All of Anno's unnecessary pscyhological masturbation went completely unnoticed. Why the fuck do you think Eva actually accelerated the very process it tried to abort? Eva was a failure. It started off strong, but the message never got through, people in the staff were mistreated, costs were cut and it was responsible for the culture shift and accelerated otaku and hikikomori tendency in Japan.
A failure through and through.
Shingeki on Eotena is the Walking Dead of the anime genre, which makes it better than either of those two.
>>142460949
Please don't butcher the glorious name of The Eotena Onslaught
>>142460283
>>142459189
>One was made by a fan of Mecha, who knew the genre and loved yet hated it.
>One was made by a guy who had never watched a fucking magical girl show, in fact, Anno himself has watched (and done) more majokkos before.
>One takes a basic plot and twists it with some daring stuff, the design style echoes trough a generation
>One is fucking Faust 101, has been done thousand of times, even by a cute girl and a cute mascot, before.
>Eva fans know enough of Mecha and while at times they will attack a show (RahXephon) its a rare occasion, hell, Plastic Memories literally copy pasted Eva characters and all everyone did was in the range of "meh"
>Madoka fans bark at everything they can see, at most know about three or four magical girls shows, think Kajiura literally invented the style of music and have so far either called all shows after meguka "a clone" or "child stuff/pedo stuff". The most hilarious case being Pleiades, which went from "a clone" and when information that it was around since the times of Madoka itself, the barking shifted to "its traditional magical girl, so boring"
>Eva has one of the most cancerous fanbases on /a/
>Madoka somehow ups that, generals are so cancerous that its crap and tripfags literally spread
>>142460868
It always baffled me why people so heavily latched on to such fucked up people as waifus.
>>142461076
And yet it still plays a lot of the magical girl tropes straight. I'd argue that Madoka has more to do with magical girls than Eva has to do with giant robots.
If by "daring stuff" you mean "bastardized Judeo-Christian mythology" then sure. I mean, while we're making blatant oversimplifications here.
That's just because the show has attracted a lot of people who would normally dislike magical girl shows.
There are approximately 8 people in Madoka threads that basically post the same stuff over and over. Not as sure about Eva threads, but I see a lot of waifu wars which seem to involve more people.
>>142461789
Eva waifu wars are so insane that they fucking change subs and how leaks work.
Utena.
>>142461076
Every blockbuster spawns imitators. Eva's been around 15 years longer, so it's had more time to spawn better imitators. (Heck, you could say Madoka's plot matches Eva's more or less.) Not so for Madoka (still only five years old)
>>142462289
Is the image supposed to work against or for your argument?
>>142462472
>What is reading comprehension?
Can you into "Madoka imitators"?
>>142462548
But isn't that just proving my point? You picked the one show that /a/ still talks about a lot of all things.
>>142461076
>Pleiades
The Nissan-sponsored magical girl show? Am I getting trolled here? You know that's promotional material for cars, right?
>>142459529
Where do you think we are?
>>142462802
Yes, and?
>>142462930
In times of Madoka, everybody felt absolutely indifferent towards it. There was no ripoff discussion and it was sumarily ignored, being a literal ad for cars.
>>142463043
Which does not excuse calling it a clone 4 years later.
>>142463104
I don'y know who calls it a clone, but I'm sure this discussion is the most attention Pleiades has had in this board for months, and it's absolutely irrelevant, just as is you witnessing an anonymous poster calling it a clone. Irrelevant, non-important and especially not representative of Madoka's fanbase, and even if it were, still fucking tangential at best when criticizing Madoka.
Your post is useless.
>>142463229
>Useless
That is an odd word to use anon, I'm unsure of what you are even trying to express with that.
Pleiades is just the crowning example of the rabidness of the fanbase, the ludicrous point when the name-calling went as far as calling something as old as Madoka a clone.
>>142461789
>And yet it still plays a lot of the magical girl tropes straight. I'd argue that Madoka has more to do with magical girls than Eva has to do with giant robots.
The idea of Eva having nothing to do with giant robots only appears because people assume that Gundam is the base, but Eva actually borrows a lot straight from Mazinger Z.
-Expedition where ancient artifact is discovered leading to giant robots
-Teenagers piloting robots for a laboratory in order to protect object hidden underground (rather than a military, for example).
-Elements like robots bleeding and even specific shots (like the first side reveal of Eva-01's face in the anime) come straight from the Mazinger Z manga.
-Father of the protagonist who left him behind and leads a secret organization to counter an ancient race of giants (although in Mazinger this only comes up in the sequel, Great Mazinger), aside from the one who isn't.
A direct quote from an Anno interview
>HA : Actually (with Evangelion), I only thought of renewing the genre. At its core, it's still Mazinger Z. I thought to myself how Mazinger Z would be if it was created today. With stuff like training the pilots in laboratories... However, this was quickly derailed.
(Just do a google search for that quote and you can find the rest of the interview).
>>142463511
>>142463511
There's another aspect, too. The main focus of both Madoka and Eva are the psychological struggles of their respective characters.
In the case of Madoka, almost all of the angst is derived from the struggles resultant from being a magical girl. All of the characters explored are magical girls.
In the case of Eva, most of the angst is derived from insecurities that are deep-rooted in the characters, that run in their psyche far before they ever come in contact with an robot. Sure, the robots often exacerbate their psychological issues, but it's far more complex than that. On top of that, a lot of the characters explored are not pilots at all.
>>142463394
>Pleiades is just the crowning example
Now you're just patting yourself in the back.
>>142461089
Because they're rich, full characters with personalities and psychologies that take almost as much effort to wrap your head around as real people, but still with the primary advantages of 2D. They're the best of both worlds.
People don't even call other shows Madoka clones anymore.
Yuki Yuna and Symphogear established themselves, so it makes no sense anymore.
Pleiades got called it, the people who called it was called retarded, and everybody went on with their lives
Turn the fucking page already.
>>142463732
TLDR; Megucas started out relatively normal; becoming meguca broke their minds.
Evucas were mindbroken to begin with.
>>142461076
>One is fucking Faust 101, has been done thousand of times,
Yea, no. Maybe the general theme of Faust, but not Goethe's Faust
I don't know why compare them tho.
At the end they are fundamentally different and shine on different aspects.
Evangelion obviously has the deepest lore and a stronger conceptual backbone, but suffers constantly from pacing issues, whereas Madoka is much more shallow but has a killer pace that doesn't lose steam.
I had more fun watching Madoka the first time, but Eva favors multiple rewatchs. You'll always pick something a little bit different each time you watch Eva.
Can we drop this already?
>>142463732
>Madoka is the main character and the conflict in the story revolves around her
>The main conflict of the story is about being a magical girl
>The main conflict isn't about the nature of selfish love
Not saying Madoka is better than Eva, it's not, but come on read deeper desu senpai.
>>142463932
There's a difference between appreciating a character and claiming a waifu, though. In the case of Eva's cast, I can understand the former completely; the latter is ridiculous.
>>142463954
Homura being the exception; she was borderline suicidal before her contract.
>>142464117
They are comparable simply because they so heavily lean on psychoanalysis and distinguishing themselves from their respective genres. Although I disagree in that I gained a greater appreciation for Madoka on subsequent rewatches.
None, nge is just shocking edgy and the other is cute retardness.
But which one is the madoka of evangelion?
>>142464324
In terms of presentation, there is a lot of focus on different aspects. Madoka, for the most part, is a bystander, trying to internalize a world that is very different from what she knew. Sayaka's character arc is extremely important for the show, and sure, the overarching conflict is Homura's, but that's hidden in obscurity until episode 10. Yes, Homura is the driving force behind a lot of the plot developments, but in terms of the premise of the show, it's only an aspect of "being meguca is suffering."
>>142464641
End of Evangelion, what with the god-shit going on.
>>142464556
>shocking edgy
That would EoE. NGE is actually pretty fair when it comes to shocking imagery. EoE simply takes it to the next level because "humanity lol".
>>142464937
Meh, it still wasn't that bad. If anything, the Christian symbology was more heavy-handed, though I suppose that's more due to the fact that so much of the premise revolved around a mythology overdosed with references to religious texts.
>>142464937
It takes it to the next level because the movie is the climax of all the weird shit that came before. I won't say it's not shocking or even at least somewhat dependent on shock value, but it's definitely not put in arbitrarily.
>>142466933
Madoka, too, rode a fair amount on its shock value.
Everyone knows Madoka is better.
>>142469657
I would argue that Madoka depends on it more than NGE does.
>>142462289
Yuuki Yuuna was equal or better to Madoka in everything but budget and was very successful in its own right, though. You probably should've posted something like Genei
>>142470360
In terms of how the events were presented, as well as establishing its twists on its respective genre, I agree. But the execution was well done nonetheless.
The bottom is moeshit that needs to go into the trash.
>>142459189
If NGE is a deconstruction of shonen, Madoka a deconstruction of shoujo, what's the seinen one?
>>142462802
Pleiades was actually a great show though, way better than it had any right to be.
It was also a more classical mahou shoujo rather than the darker "deconstructions" (/a/'s term, not mine) like Madoka or YuYuYu, which are actually pretty damn rare nowadays outside of Precure
Paranoia agent
>>142470485
The show faltered in Yuna going into her coma and getting out of it all with the span of 8 minutes. It had no impact and just felt cheap unlike if it would have had 2 episodes to work with.
>>142470485
>this is what yuyuyufags actually believe
>>142470485
Going full shounen in order to resolve the final conflict was hardly commendable writing direction.
>>142470763
Fair enough, even the most diehard YuYuYufag (like me) will admit that the ending was weak. The supplemental material helps a lot with this, but not everybody is going to want to look beyond the anime. S2 being basically assured and having been teased for almost two years now also helps a lot.
>>142470913
t.buttflustered Geneifag
>>142470994
tl;dr of the supplementary material?
And what would they even do with an S2? They resolved literally everything.
>>142471438
Basically:
>the Shinju returned the sacrifices because Yuuna's actions made it believe in humanity's potential (also Tougou scared it and the Taisha shitless)
>as a result, the Shinju believes that humanity can take the offensive and reclaim the world from the Vertex
>for this purpose, the Hero terminals will go into mass-production, allowing any pure girl to become a Yuusha, but without the fairy barriers
>the plan for reconstruction apparently involves seeds
>Sonoko (bandaged girl) joins the Hero Club and is based
>something is seriously up with Yuuna
Also there's an ongoing LN prequel taking place 300 years ago when everything first went to shit, and totally-not-Yuuna is there along with Sonoko's ancestor.
>>142470994
>teasing for 2 years
I don't think that is teasing. It isn't happening.
>>142471636
Wow. That sounds even worse then the original ending. Trying way too hard to be a deep Madoka ripoff.
>>142471948
>Magical Girl Ragnarok
>like Madoka
>>142459189
Madoka is alright but wouldn't Evangelion be the true Evangelion of anime?
>>142471636
That doesn't seem to explain why Shinju never needed to claim sacrifices in such a sadistic manner in the first place. It still appears that the whole process was completely unnecessary and existed just for the sake of generating conflict in the show.
>>142470485
>Liking something with Takahiro's name on it.
He combined elements that worked on previous series and fucking plebs like you fell for it, it lacks a story or themes, the whole show is a gimmick.
>>142472117
Sonoko mentions at some point that because the Shinju is a god, and even though it's benevolent, it has different thought processes than humans, and polytheistic gods can tend to be jerks. It could have something to do with how the gods work, as the written works love to emphasize that the gods favor purity above all else and the Yuushas are the purest girls.
The possibility is also brought up that when the sacrifices were replaced, they may not have gained back exactly what they lost, although what this might mean isn't exactly known yet.
Why can't magical girl fans all be friends?
Except Genei, though.
>>142461994
This desu
If evangelion is better than obviously it's the evangelion of anime
and if madoka is better, wouldn't calling it the evangelion of anime be an insult
>>142472338
Depending on how long the Hero system has been in place, I could be surprised that no one tried to pull Togo's stunt sooner. Even if the Shinju did not see something like this coming, the Taisha should have, and relayed this to the Shinju in order to work things out better.
>>142472101
>>142472777
I'll be entirely honest, I deliberately invoked a meme OP.
>>142472868
The Mankai system was only put into place very recently though, during the end of Washio Sumi, and we aren't sure exactly how many Hero teams there have been.
The Heroes of the Nogi Wakaba LN 300 years ago have something simlar that they call a Trump Card, whose effects are still unknown, and most people are betting on at least one character going nuclear.
>>142459189
Devilman
>>142459189
>yaoi vs yuri
i am going with eva
>>142473207
Fag.
>>142473207
What are you gay
>>142473300
To be quite frank, yuri is pretty fucking gay.
>>142473340
It's the right kind of gay
>>142472162
>Urobochi fag calling someone out on gimmicks
>Urobochi fag calling anyone else plebs
Please, do not think you are superior because you watched baby's first magical girl
>>142473340
Yaoi is gayer than yuri
>>142459189
The Madoka Movie Project trilogy crushes the Rebuild trilogy. Even if the tentative 4th Madoka film doesn't surpass Rebellion, it's guarenteed to be better than the tentative 4.44.
Series vs series, Evangelion wins because Madoka couldn't be done without Eva. I think Madoka has significantly more coherrent symbolism and motifs though.
>>142472693
What is the point of bullying Genei?
Of all the series that got shat on by Madoka that one is the worse, since it was actually planned before Meguka explored and was mostly following Higurashi and other loli suffering feasts.
>>142473495
What motifs?
>>142473016
Back to my original point: the fact that Yuki Yuna's grimdark aspect is just thrown in there so haphazardly defeats the entire point of featuring it in the first place. Any interest it initially generates is completely robbed because the entire plot point is rendered pointless. Both Eva and Madoka handle their grimdark far more meaningfully.
>>142473458
That's not how homosexuality works, anon.
>>142473495
Does Madoka even have much symbolism?
>>142473687
You would know.
>>142473427
This is not about Urobuchi or about Madoka, this is about Takahiro being a talentless hack.
Any product with his name on it, is shit.
>>142473739
But you clearly know nothing about Takahiro's previous works.
A) Because most of it was eroge
B) Because considering you are talking about Akame ga Kill, the whole charm of Yuki Yuna and the only reason it sold was because Takahiro didn't go for the same murder fiesta that AgK was.
>>142470590
There isn't one that I know of since Seinen already tries to present itself as far more realistic with more character development.
You could either take this to the extreme and basically make a show about real life (probably boring) or you could make a show that looks like seinen on first glance but is actually completely oversimplified shonen. Both of these sound like bad ideas.
>>142473427
YYY=Walmart Madoka
Akame ga Kill=Walmart Fate/Zero
I suppose next Hackahiro will make Walmart Psycho Pass, right?
>>142474001
Nah, I'm well familiar with his eroge works and they're not so different from his anime works.
Devoid of any substance, and only pander for the sake of sales.
>>142473499
My dad used to work at AIC and he says Urobuchi and Shinbo were at the first planning sessions for Gen'ei, like how John Lasseter described the plot for A Bug's Life to Jeffrey Katzenberg right before Jeff split to form DreamWorks, and then they released Antz just before Bug's Life.
Likewise, my dad says Shinbo pulled some strings at Jewniplex to speed up production on Madoka so it would come out earlier and delay funding for Gen'ei.
>>142474001
Except that YuYuYu's preorder sales roughly doubled after Episode 8, whereas before it had been hovering in the 3-4k range.
>>142475064
Butch finished writing Madoka in 2008-2009, it was delayed because Shinbo was busy at the time.
>>142475132
Yes? Even so, the girls were not dead, they could still talk (or interact) and that was important.
Furthermore, there is no way to know if without the idle episodes the series wouldn't have sold, like many others that came before.
>>142470485
YYY is a COMPLETELY ORIGINAL mahout shoujo that just happens to bear some cosmetic similarities with Madoka. It's an allegory for the average Japanese soldier's experience in WW2.
Madoka meanwhile is a blatant ripoff of Kamen Rider Ryuki with some Evangelion, Bokurano, and Princess Tutu thrown in for good measure. Toei should've sued the shit out of Shaft, the Magica Quartet, and Jewniplex.
>>142473644
I don't get how that proves that the "grimdark aspect" is haphazardly thrown in. The Nogi Wakaba LN is pretty grim much of the time, with it happening during the apocalypse. Its first chapter had elementary schoolers being half-eaten and the overall atmosphere is much darker. And although the Sumi Washio LN is a bit lighter than the anime, it kills off a main character halfway through after which things get a lot more grim.
One of the main appeals of the YuYuYu series is that it balances out the grimdark aspects with SoL that showcases the girls' daily lives and their bonds with each other. In that sense you care more about them when shit happens, unlike in Madoka where Mami is killed three episodes in before we even know much about her.
>>142470485
>Yuuki Yuuna was equal or better to Madoka in everything
No.
Even fucking Vividred is better than yucky Yuna.
>>142475812
I have no experience with the LN; I'm talking exclusively about the anime. I'll even go as far to say that the setting in place is actually grimmer and darker than Madoka's, which makes it all the more frustrating when it's completely brushed aside for the finale.
>>142475812
We got to Madoka, Sayaka, and Homura fairly well without having to waste episodes on rescuing lost cats or UMI DA.
>>142476540
It isn't really though when you think about it for a second. The outside world is still a blazing hellscape, and although the Vertex attacks have stopped for a while, they'll eventually return necissitiating either new Heroes or the Hero Club returning to duty (and the epilogue chapter at the very least shows Tougou and Karin preparing to go back into battle).
The girls ultimately bought a reprieve, but the world hasn't changed at all. And in the epilogue Sonoko (by far the smartest person in the cast) outright says that the way things are now, the Shinju is bound to fall eventually, because it's a siege with no win condition for humanity.
>>142463649
Kek
>>142476690
This.
Anyone who claims Madoka's characters were not developed enough is retarded.
>>142459189
I enjoyed Eva more than Madoka
>>142476834
They're developed enough but they really aren't all that interesting.
>>142476690
This. At least part of the reason for Madoka's success was viewers thinking, "They're actually telling a story here and sticking with it! They're not being dragged to the beach, hot spring, or festival for fanservice or merchandise!"
>>142476690
I really hope you are joking, Sayaka was a living plot device.
>>142476753
The aspect of "girls conscripted with zero prior knowledge doomed to sustain horrific injury in battle and rot perpetually without the sweet release of death" is completely overwritten, and in a manner that demonstrates that it was completely unnecessary to have in the first place. The fact that Togo blew giant holes in the wall, leaving Shinju completely open to the Vertices, is seemingly glossed over, too.
>>142476834
>>142476998
I would argue that YuYuYu's characters are developed more, though, and I cared about them more than Madoka's characters except for Homura
Madoka is the Marvel Cinematic Universe of magical girls.
>>142476998
Madoka's success was based on cashing in on 12 years of "neoclassical" (of the japanese sort) and blowing up a large deal of Aniplex marketing money on it.
>>142477065
Yuki Yuna's characters developed more as normal people, whereas Madoka's are developed more as child soldiers.
To be entirely frank, the only character I actually actively liked in Yuki Yuna was Togo. The rest were sympathetic, but not particularly outstanding.
>>142477045
It signals a paradigm shift; reading the epilogue, it's a signal that humanity will try to fight for itself with (mostly) its own power, instead of cowering behind the gods. Otherwise the Shinju probably would've chosen a new group of Heroes to slowly turn into logs.
And it's mentioned in the anime that the Shinju actually creates holes in its barrier to let Vertex in at a chokepoint where the Heroes can deal with it, as opposed to risking its barrier being broken by the mass of enemies, so I'm sure that it can repair holes in its barrier fairly quickly.
>>142470485
>Yuuki Yuuna was equal or better to Madoka
My sides
>>142477400
Of course, you have to read a bunch of side materials to know this.
Madoka's narrative is self-contained, like any good cinema should be. If Butcher wrote like Hackahiro, we'd have only learned where witches come from in Kazumi Magica or one of the other endless spinoffs.
>>142470485
GODANI should work with Gokumi on YYY S2 and maybe a recap movie. They made the Monogatarikiller; why not add a Madokakiller?
YYY's story with GODANI's art and direction would be AOT fucking D right there.
>>142477532
>spin-offs
>>142477400
Even if "human will" or whatever was what resolved the crisis Togo caused, it's still presented poorly. It's obviously a case of mutual co-dependence; Shinju will be eliminated by Vertices without human defenders (Heroes); the world will be eliminated by Vertices if not for Shunju's wall. It would damn well be in Shinju's best interest to treat the heroes well, and Togo proves exactly the kind of shit they could have avoided altogether if they had an ounce of foresight-- it's quite clearly shown that the means to avoid it were there.
>>142477210
I think that was the point: the girls of Madoka are divorced from their everyday lives pretty violently, with it even being a major plot point for Sayaka as she feels she can't expect that violinfag to love her when she's by all definitions a lich. We don't see Homura living anything close to a normal life, Kyoko is a hobo who became bitter after her wish ended up destroying her life, and the culmination of Madoka is her heroically sacrificing her happy everyday life to protect the world.
Meanwhile, in YuYuYu most of the girls have happy, normal lives (even Fuu and Itsuki, who could have a lot of potential for trouble with a 14-year-old having to essentially become a surrogate mother, have a great relationship and Fuu is a great "parent" for Itsuki). The conflict stems from whether the girls should have to sacrifice their everyday lives in order to protect the world, with the answer being a resounding "fuck that shit." If anything, it's a rejection of Madoka's message of sacrifice for the greater good.
>>142477532
YuYuYu was always a multimedia franchise, though, and a lot of Kyoko's and Mami's backstory and development were only shown in TDS (fuck you it's canon)
>>142477713
There is no need for a Madoka killer, all magical girls die by themselves, sadly.
Sally was big as hell, Cutie Honey was big as hell, Creamy Mami was big, Sailor Moon was big as hell, Nanoha was somewhat noticeable.
Then it all withers and die. Unlike Mecha or shonen, Magical Girls are watched by two kinds of people, little girls who forget about it as they grow up, and dudes who forget about it when a new waifu shows up.
>>142477956
I agree; it's a major distinction between the series, and I didn't mean that as a flaw in either direction.
>>142459189
We discussed this before, it's Oreimo.
>>142477956
So it's "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" versus "the many can choke on it" then?
>>142478182
More like "it's okay because everyone gets a satisfying ending anyways, because the suffering was entirely preventable so let's start preventing it now."
"The many can choke on it" would have been Togo actually succeeding.
>>142477953
I think that from the Shinju's viewpoint it was treating the girls well; it did make them immortal, and gave them the power to protect their world; considering how much Japanese society values group identity over individualism, it's not a stretch to say that it believed that sacrificing oneself for the rest of humanity was what the girls wanted. Tougou simply showed that it wasn't, and Yuuna showed that humanity was willing to take the far riskier path and stand for themselves.
It's not like the Taisha were malevolent either; they legitimately worshipped the girls as demigods (which, by all intents and purposes they were) and gave their families lavish rewards for their service. They had simply gotten too arrogant, forgetting that they were supposed to be intermediaries between the Shinju and the Heroes instead of the Heroes' managers.
>>142478182
Essentially. Ever read "Those Who Walk Away from Omelas?"
>>142473711
Yes, inside the barriers. You're supposed to pierce together the witches' backgrounds.
YuYuYu will always automatically be worse while its an unfinished series, and even then, Madoka is simply the best, can't we focus on more interesting stuff?
Like, you know, the reason why this thread was made?
>>142473711
Lots, pretty much all of which (like the Faust references) were added in by Inu Curry
>>142477956
>Madoka protecting the world
She killed quintillions.
>>142461076
>Plastic memories
I was following your post until this, what the fuck are you on, that has nothing to do with Eva, and the characters were completely different.
>>142478477
Madoka did nothing wrong
don't fear the reaper
>>142478352
So then it becomes a matter of Hanlon's razor with a dash of poor communication and adherence to status quo until an entirely avoidable disaster strikes.
That's an awfully dissatisfying source of conflict. On the other hand, if the sacrifices of the girls were actually unavoidable and irreparable, then the only truly satisfying ending would have been Togo succeeding. The premise was working against the writing direction.
>>142478689
Her lack of foresight drove her girlfriend to becoming a reality warping demon.
An honest mistake, but a pretty major one.
>>142478437
All the Eva fans seem to have disappeared.
>>142478720
It's only humanity trying desperately to survive in a shitty situation. It's sort of like Shin Sekai Yori, where the society they were all living in was shitty but it was pretty much their only option to avoid destruction, minus the gay bonobo sex
>>142478862
No one could've guessed such a shitty development.
Is there anything deeper then CHICKEN SALAD though?
>>142479275
A walking temporal anomaly with determination and psychological trauma in equally astronomical measure being left to her own devices after being robbed of her reason to live and being thrown into an unfamiliar world and subjected to even more emotional torment seems like pretty obvious recipe for disaster to me.
Enough about which series is better.
Which series isgayer?
>>142475765
>Toei should've sued the shit out of Shaft, the Magica Quartet, and Jewniplex.
Do you seriously think this makes any sense?
>>142479458
Kaworu was only their for a short period; while his interactions with Shinji were more blatantly homosexual, dedicating your entire existence for the sake of the happiness of someone else of the same gender is quite possibly the gayest thing you could ever do.
>>142478416
Gertrud: Sheltered ojou who wished for her family's mustachioed Filipino gardener to fall in love with her; her parents found out and disowned her.
Elly: Agoraphobic, autistic hikikomori who wanted to understand people more; gained mind-reading powers, found out everyone thought she was a failure at life.
Suleika: Blind girl who wished for sight; found the world wasn't so pleasant after all.
Albertine: Lonely elementary-school girl who wished for her imaginary friend Anja to become real.
Uhrmann: Stepdaughter or adopted girl who was treated worse than her new family's dog.
Elsa Maria: Christian girl from WW2 Hiroshima who wished for an end to the war.
Izabel: Art student who was having trouble coming up with a project for her final.
Patricia: Former enjo kosai girl who wanted more respect; became class president; teacher found out about her past and threatened to expose her unless she "did something for him".
Gisela: Bosozoku girl who wished to get into college but couldn't keep her grades up.
Roberta: Kazuko-sensei.
Modern anime is more influenced by Haruhi than by Eva, I think.
Hell, I would say Gundam SEED has influenced modern anime far more than Eva. Pretty much most personal struggles and interpersonal issues remind me of that mess of a story.
Perhaps, Eva did influence on the importance of character-introspection, but it's hardly ever done well, and it's generally more a vehicle for melodrama and poor-clichés.
>>142480001
http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/14236/You-Like-Evangelion-Anno-hates-youDeath-of-the-Author/
>Psychological breakdowns and meta-commentary are so common in anime, nowadays, people don’t realize that it’s a trend Eva more or less pioneered, along with a bunch of other things.
>>142480337
The title makes it sound like you can't "like" Evangelion for what it was intended to present. I liked it because it shat on convention and it presented a fucked up world of fucked up people, defying the escapist fantasies of most media.
>>142478416
That's not symbolism, it's storytelling through setting details.
>>142478459
References aren't symbolism either.
>>142480724
Written by either an autist in denial who can't understand why people wouldn't interpret the show in a different way or a master troll who's sitting back and laughing at all the "Anno hates his fans, so edgy! I love it! (fedora tip)" commentary.
Or maybe both.
>>142480943
>in a different way
>in his way
>>142480001
Madoka and Eva were nothing new, they took the same ingredients that made up other shows, but with a certain combination it resulted in something that appeared new. It's all about the execution.
Series like Madoka and Eva might not have the most clones, but their influence is more passive because everyone has seen them at a certain point. Every robot anime after Eva is influenced by Eva in a certain way, because the creators of said mecha anime have seen Eva, that alone is enough.
On the other hand, there comes a series that popularizes a new concept, and gets a million other clones. Series like Infinite stratos, SAO and MLA. Those kind of series, the formula they introduce takes the center stage, the execution of the show hardly matters and it gets copied to a million other work, it's a different kind of influence, a more shallow one.
I've noticed, specifically Americans, can't stand the thought of there being more then one "thing". They do it with Power Rangers, anything remotely similar is a "Power Rangers ripoff", they do it with Pokemon, anything remotely similar, even things that aren't monster collecting games (Like LBX, even) are called ripoffs of Pokemon, any mecha show that isn't your standard Gundam is a ripoff of Eva, any magical girl show that isn't your standard Sailor Moon or Precure is a ripoff of Madoka, I just don't understand it. No matter how little similarities these things might have in common, you always call it a ripoff and say it's just an inferior copy, no matter what it is.
And why is it almost always either Americans or spics that do this?
eva.
madoka would of been better if it was about kyoko
>>142481168
Precure was called a Sailor Moon clone even, I think the fact they never had the classics in their homes (unlike Asia and Europe) weights a lot.
And who cares about what Americans think, they economical importance to the genre is to small.
Symphogear sold, YuYuYu sold, Precure sells. Life goes on.
>>142479275
>No one could have guess
>Omniscient goddess who sees across time and space
>No one could have guess
>>142476998
My $400 MadoHomu New Year maikos disagree.
>>142481160
>Eva might not have the most clones
Eva has tons of clones.
>>142481699
Like?
>>142473711
Light, decay, the unicorn and the mermaid, water, etc. And unlike Eva, the symbolism actually has meaning instead of being Judeo-Christian mysticism symbols thrown onto the show for an air of foreign coolness.
>>142481160
>Every robot anime after Eva is influenced by Eva in a certain way
Didn't Super Robo pretty much die after Eva?
I mean, the only big super robo after Eva I can recall is GGG.
GL seems more like a recall to the past than a revival of Super Robo - since other series pretty much failed at sales (even fucking Mazinger).
>>142482355
Rebellion adds more, like the nutcracker, the red spider lilies, the guillotine, the salamander.
It's also worth noting that the Judeo-Christian aspects of NGE have very little to do with the actual mythology at all; really, it's just borrowing names in order to embellish its own universe's mythos.
>>142461994
This. It's also made by Anno's stalker Ikuhara-san.
>>142482355
What do those things mean? How are they used? Even one or two examples would be great.
You have a flawed idea of what the word symbol means in the context of an artistic work. The Judeo-christian symbology in Eva is not artistic symbolism. Those things actually exist in universe and have a tangible meaning within that universe. They're setting details to give the story gravitas. The actual symbols in NGE are stuff like how hands are used to represent power, agency, and the point at which decisions are made.
>>142483368
The Unicorn and the Mermaid, for example, was used as an allegory for Kyouko and Sayaka's situation.
I think that guys point was that imagery in Madoka serves a purpose as symbolism, whereas in Eva not that much.
No one beats Utena in this category, though.
>>142483368
I'm not going to write an essay, but here's some thoughts:
The unicorn and the mermaid is Kyouko and Sayaka. Kyouko is a unicorn, which traditionally represents purity; her whole character arc is about purity, a fall from grace into corruption, and then redemption. Sayaka is the mermaid, which is associated with water. Water is used both to show sadness and to show purification, which links the symbols together. Corruption and decay vs purification is explicitly talked about with the soul gems and implicit in lots of the character development. It's also reinforced with the visuals and music of the show.
>>142483368
Here's one I like:
There's a lot of railroad imagery in Oktavia's barrier. In fact, Sayaka's witch transformation takes place at a train station. Oktavia herself is a conductor-- deliberate wordplay here because both trains and orchestras feature conductors. Beyond the fact that she made her wish for the ability of a musician to regain his ability to perform, a big part of Sayaka's fate was due to her own decisions-- she directed her own path to her demise, asserting that she will kill witches until her body cannot do so any longer.
Homulilly is the nutcracker witch. Homura herself has only one purpose-- protect Madoka. When she can no longer fulfill that, as Homulilly, she orders her own execution. The guillotine comes down not on her neck, but across her skull, severing her at the jaw. A nutcracker doll with a broken jaw cannot crack nuts; this is Homura's failure, her futility of existence. From her broken skull sprouts a red spider lily-- representative of eternal separation. Homura believes she can never be with Madoka.
As an aside, one of the tracks on the OST is "Walpurgis Nux" that is, not "Walpurgis Night" but rather "Walpurgis Walnut"-- the nut Homura could never crack.
>>142483368
Unicorns are temperamental creatures who can only be tamed by pure maidens, and their horns can heal and chase away illusions; Sayaka is the maiden who "tamed" Kyoko, giving her back her idealism, and Kyoko's original powers were illusion-based. Note that Kyoko's witch form is a figure riding a horse.
Meanwhile, Sayaka is the little mermaid, someone who gave up something dear to her for love, but did not find it, and killed herself out of despair. Sayaka could also be a Melusine, a sort of French water spirit similar to a mermaid; it's said that every seven years, a Melusina will appear with a golden key in her mouth, and whoever can take the key from her can claim her as his bride. When Kyoko undoes her Soul Gem, it takes the form of a golden key.
There's also Homulilly's red spider lily motif. Red spider lillies are a famous symbol of death and eternal separation in Japanese folklore; it's said that when two people meet upon a path where they bloom, they shall never meet again.
>>142483502
>>142483786
>>142483941
>>142484101
Cool shit guys, thanks for explaining.
>>142484235
There are also more blatantly obvious ones, such as Homura shooting herself in the head in her fight against Mami, or throwing herself off a cliff in the post-credits scene.
>>142483941
>>142484101
I'd also throw in that when Homura is reunited with Madoka, Homulilly's spider lilies become a cherry blossum tree, symbolising her "rebirth" and refound purpose.
That doesn't even begin to touch on the Nietzche references when she becomes the devil.
>>142480731
>>142478459
How are those not symbolism?
>>142481902
RahXephon, for one.
>>142484708
Yes, which was mentioned before, it does not constitute a ton.
>>142459189
Madoka is the Dark Souls of anime.
>>142484656
A symbol is imagery that represents something abstract within the context of the story. A reference is just that, a reference, and imagery that shows back story is representing something concrete within the context of the story.
>>142484541
>such as Homura shooting herself in the head in her fight against Mami, or throwing herself off a cliff in the post-credits scene.
What did those mean?
>>142484772
Nah, tone is completely different. At least the themes are somewhat similar though.
The question is, what is the RahXephon of Madoka?
I'm tempted to say Yuki Yuna, but it has been two years and the thing somehow survives.
What are the other options, just Genei and Vividred? Wixoss?
>>142481649
That's paratext, not part of the canon. The only megucas have ever gone to the umi or festival was for advertising purposes and in fanfiction/doujin writers' heads.
I still wonder if Rebellion was Gen's middle finger to Aniplex and Shinbo for wanting a continuation to a story that seemed pretty much finished.
>>142484947
Mahou Shoujo of the End
>>142484947
Probably Genei, Vividred is a silly mecha musume like Symphogear and WIXOSS is still alive. Genei was stillborn.
>>142484800
It means Homura is feeling very happy with herself for doing nothing wrong.
>>142459189
Why is the katakana for madoka "magika" (マギカ) and not "majika" (マジカ)? Is it really pronounced ma-gee-ka?
>>142484800
These would be suicidal imagery in the form of symbolic gestures. Although because of her nature, these actions cannot cause permanent harm to Homura, they reflect a very prominent aspect of her character-- her self hatred. Suicide can be an ultimate manifestation of self hatred, and while she does not die from either of these acts, the meaning behind it is self evident. Her actions have brought down immense guilt and suffering upon her.
Another example of a symbolic gesture is Homura returning the ribbons Madoka gave her. More than just "they look better on you after all," Homura is implicitly saying "I can no longer be at your side after I what I have done." It's Homura's recognition of her own sins, and representative of her belief that despite her goal of protecting Madoka, she bears the fault of causing her suffering.
>>142484947
YYY is the RahXephon of Madoka. It has vigorous fans if you know where to look, some of whom says it's better than Evangelion, right down to, "the characters actually feel like real people and not mental patients or walking personifications for mental disorders!"
>>142485060
It uses the Latin word, so yes, the "ma-gee-ka" is accurate.
>>142484981
I doubt it. It's not like Shinbo didn't suggest the idea for them to become enemies. Urobuchi didn't even know if it was possible for it to happen and even at this point it's still feels pretty forced. And Urobuchi seemed like he was very proud of the movie.
>>142485165
>it's still feels pretty forced
In a way, that's fitting because Homura forced herself to do it. She never wanted this; she just felt that it was the necessarily evil course of action.
>>142484947
Rahxephon arrived 7 years after Eva. Give it time, two years at least.
>>142485097
BD sales are similar, but Yuki Yuna's fanbase and franchise health seem far better than what RahXephon had two years after its release, with a new manga and all.
>>142485226
Yeah, I know that. It's very much in character.
>>142485097
http://reviews.antagonyecstasy.com/2015/07/you-can-not-redo.html
(scroll to comments)
>"One show that was pivotal in getting me into anime was Yutaka Izubuchi's RahXephon...I found it really dispiriting to learn that the whole show was conceived as a response of sorts to Evangelion, and how its whole existence is necessarily overshadowed by the older, more influential series. I got all the more resentful about it when I later saw Evangelion, and rather than the cathartic shiver that the finale of RahXephon elicited from me, my response to the ending of Eva was rather an involuntary, incredulous laugh and excalimation of "really? That's it?"
>"As a result, I've thought long and hard about why I find Evangelion so frustrating and why I recoil whenever someone talks about its artistic greatness."
>"Evangelion is, possibly first and foremost, a series-length referendum on the nature of depression and the various attendant neuroses. Past a certain point, it becomes less a show about mechs versus monsters than a delivery mechanism for Hideaki Anno to agitate his central cast's insecurities and study the reaction he gets."
>>142485342
Frankly, that guy is just wrong. He's saying that all of the characters are nothing more than psychological problems personified, but that is basically wrong because pretty much all the characters have the exact same psychological problem and they all respond to it differently.
>>142485342
>>142485703
>"Evangelion is, possibly first and foremost, a series-length referendum on the nature of depression and the various attendant neuroses."
This much is at least accurate. Although I agree that the characters are more than their disorders, especially since they can't be pinned down neatly by specific diagnoses either.
>>142485783
I dunno, if I sat down my mom and Anno is not some fraudulent hack, she could pin down their disorders.
She does that sometimes when watching TV. "This guy is this, this guy is that" and so on.
>>142485855
You can point out a lot of indicative symptoms, but making a definitive diagnosis is more of a stretch.
>>142485991
Eh, it's usually exaggerated on TV and Evangelion even more so, being an anime and all. It's not that hard to figure out Asuka is histrionic and Shinji avoidant. Their personality disorders are overblown to the point of them becoming practically their entire identity.
It does bother me a bit about Evangelion. The characters, which are supposed to be the epitome of characterization, aren't that tangible and realistic. Shinji is constantly being avoidant, and Asuka is constantly trying to grab everyone's attention. They're one tone and, well, overblown.
I'm sorry, but they're not very complex. People with personality disorders usually have their moments. An avoidant person is not full sappy all the fucking time.
The intention is not to catalogue personality disorders, and their personality faults serve more of a backdrop to the general theme. Calling it a "referendum on the nature of depression" is giving it way way way too much credit.
>>142485855
Your mom's deductions would be more noteworthy if she had at least a degree in psychology or psychiatry.
>>142486462
She does.
That's why I'm curious. But she isn't into chinese cartoons, so whatever.
>>142486454
Part of the problem is that there are so few interactions with normal characters, so most of the time the characters' disorders end up clashing and bringing out their dysfunctional natures in full bloom. Not to mention the fact that they're constantly on edge by nature of their occupation. There's really no relief at all. Shinji has pretty good reason to be avoidant with the people around him, because they're not healthy influences. Asuka has very little ability to self-direct, so of course she's going to lash out on everyone who is above her, which her inferiority complex cannot handle. The number of factors that play into generating these disorders are the source of complexities. The constant struggle with the self that the characters experience generates complexity.
>>142486746
Something else to add: as part of managing psychological disorders, it's often recommended to avoid contact with certain stimuli that exacerbate one's mental state. These stimuli can include people. This never happens. And really, therapy would have not been as effective as it could have been considering the circumstances in which the characters were trapped.
>>142486454
>I'm sorry, but they're not very complex. People with personality disorders usually have their moments. An avoidant person is not full sappy all the fucking time.
I suppose living in a post-apocalyptic world and having to fight dangerous battles on a regular bases against your own wishes must have an effect on you.
>>142487436
Not to mention that it only gets worse from there.
Hindsight's a bitch. I should have made a strawpoll for this.
>>142485264
RahXephon came out before high-speed internet really took off and made anime almost mainstream outside Japan, before cults of personality started developing around absolutely anything.
If it had been released a decade later (or perhaps even five years later), it would've been as big a hit as YYY. (I know Aniplex gets condemned a lot as the 900-pound gorilla of anime marketing, but Pony Canyon, Kadokawa, etc. seem to hold their own pretty well.)
>>142474745
Being the walmart version of a 99 cents chinese shit product is an improvement if you ask me
>>142475765
Nah, YuYuYu isn't that original.
The problem is that people compares it with a shitty mahou shoujo because "muh edge". When it has more similarities with things like Heart Catch Precure
>>142490046
>psycho pass Chinese
Anyone who would even try to produce a show like that there would be cat food by now.
>>142490046
Are you a kyoanusfag? It would make sense for your ilk to hang out in yyy threads.
>>142486454
The middle arc of the show has tons of moments with characters interacting in relatively low stakes situations.
I swear, sometimes people get so hung up on the darker moments of Eva that they basically just forget about how lighthearted the middle arc is.
>>142491223
Derail aside, this isn't a Yuki Yuna thread.
>>142459409
>Compare PenguinDumb with Analgaylion
To compare which shit is shittier?
>>142461076
>Make by a guy who never watch a fucking magical girl show
>Sell like hot cake
So Urobuchi a Genius and Anno a hack?
>>142463649
>Madoka is more popular and well known
>No one actually care about Ryushitgarbage except /m/anchild
Is Urobuchi a god who can make anything glorious?
>>142459189
Didn't you just answered your own question
>>142493879
Don't make me bully you to death again
>>142493879
Don't take the meme OP literally.
>>142493146
No. His involvement in Chaos Dragon (granted, it was relatively limited compared to other projects he's worked on) did absolutely nothing to save it from being garbage.
>>142493918
Ok I will back off this time
>>142495844
No one can make Chaos Dragon good. It's literally just a bunch of guys playing DnD, you can't compare it in any capacity to a story with an actual conscious narrative.
>>142497204
They could have at least made their characters interesting instead of so terribly bland. And don't get me wrong, edgy is my guilty pleasure, but it so remarkably failed at being edgy that it was laughable. Literally the only interesting aspect was the worldbuilding, which was completely wasted as most of it was unexplored.
>>142497412
Have you played DnD before? It's not easy to actually get really good characterization in a sizable group of players unless you're just a random wacky nutcase. especially if the DM doesn't facilitate any of that well. The worldbuilding is the easiest part because they get to spend fuck however long they want writing that with an actual sense of focus way before the game starts.
>>142497903
I haven't. Closest I've done is roleplaying in text form, and in my experience, character interactions were one of the best things about them.
Anyways, from what I understand, the anime played very loosely with the source material, so that isn't the best excuse for having a cast full of nothing.
>>142461076
this pretty much explains the differences
>>142498345
That was also refuted. Genre and overarching plot aside, this was probably the most noteworthy in terms of differences in the premise >>142463732
>>142499335
I wouldn't say Madoka is about psychology. Even though the whole plot is structured around Madoka learning stuff from magical girls around her in shitty situations, I think it's more abstract than that and the show is about theology and an uncaring world. The way the characters handle their situation is what we see, but with the setting, Kyubey as an antagonist, what they're fighting for and what finally wins the day, it's less about the individual human drama. Rebellion had more of the character drama though.
>>142478665
>>142497204
Red dragon was great though, Urobuchi's character was totally different from the Chaos dragon one too.
The fight at the end, was like it was planned beforehand and they ruined it and the adaptation.
