Are animators these days not as good as the previous generation? We all know Miyazaki's complaints about modern animation, but now even Mamoru Oshii had something to say about the current generation of animators:
>the number of people within this country able to work with such high precision is less than 5 percent. The younger generation is more individualistic, and while the world appreciates how good their art has become, they’re unable to do exhausting work like their older predecessors. The biggest reason why I’ve stopped making anime is because the people who I can do [anime] with are disappearing.
So Oshii seems to be implying that the younger generation can't do more technically demanding work.
http://news.nicovideo.jp/watch/nw2210390
>>142188830
>>the number of people within this country able to work with such high precision is less than 5 percent.
5% of 120 millions is 5.1 millions.
>>142188954
I think it should go without saying he's talking about animators, not the general population.
>>142188830
He's complaining that the younger generation don't want to overwork themselves.
>>142188830
He sounds like a grumpy old man.
>>142189019
>The younger generation is more individualistic, and while the world appreciates how good their art has become, they’re unable to do exhausting work like their older predecessors.
The first half of this line seems to imply that Oshii was talking about animation styles though. If you look at Oshii's movies, he tends to surround himself with animators that specialize in realistic animation which is quite demanding on the animator. You don't see young animators bothering with realistic styles of animation these days. I don't know if it's just a trend or because they find it too difficult though.
>>142189097
Doesn't make him wrong.
>>142188830
>they’re unable to do exhausting work
>can't do more technically demanding work.
Stop, he is saying the older generation, being less individualistic, would work themselves to death to meet deadlines. He isn't complaiing about their technical skill at all. The new generation tells him to fuck off with his deadlines and to make do with the work they produced without working ungodly overhours on McDonalds wages. No really, the wages of anyone that isn't in a key position is literally McDonalds tier, yet they are still asked to work all day every day and on 4 hours of sleep, which is preferably had at the office. If laws would allow it they would be shackled to their desks.
There is less and less money is anime, because it is being used more and more as a promotional tool for merchandise and derivative works. All these people should be pointing fingers at Anno and his kickstarting of the merch>anime era, rather than complaining about the new generation of animators. Not that either would do any good.
What they need is to make an anime that makes oodles of cash without merch. This will never happen though. They might start of with the intention of making an anime without merch, but the moment it makes oodles of cash they'll come to the realization that they could make even more oodles of cash by releasing merch.
The cashflow for anime is not in anime, but in its associated merchandise.
>>142189129
I don't agree with the way that's translated.
>上の世代のおやじたちみたいな破滅的な仕事の仕方はしたがらなくなりました
>unlike the old men of the older generation, they no longer want to work in a way that's [self-]destructive
>>142189252
>There is less and less money is anime,
Because there's more and more anime every season and the Japanese population is shrinking.
>>142188933
>animation
muh still shots
>>142188830
well oshii is full of shit
animated movie and tv anime ain't comparable, different level complexity when approaching the project, more animators, budget and TIME.
>>142188830
How about you first increase their wages? Animators get paid shit and times aren't even paid when they work overtime.
>>142189252
Yeah, because Gundam (the franchise that's the biggest seller of merch) was inspired by NGE.
>>142189447
Then replace Anno with Gundam, fine by me. My point still stands.
>>142189472
Anime was ruined in the 80s?
>>142189309
Because the are treating anime like advertisements for manga/LN's/figurines/dolls.
>He wants to force people to reinforce his vision for free.
KEK
>>142189252
That's a stretch at best for an interpretation. He means their aren't many who feel meticulous verisimilitude is useful enough to their artistic vision to be worth the trouble.
>pay people like shit
>they don't want to bend themselves over backwards for you
Who would've guessed?
>>142189508
>Minna no Uta (start 1961)
Literally an advertisement show.
>Astro Boy (1963)
Based on a manga.
>Sennin Buraku (1963)
Based on a manga.
>Tetsujin 28-go (1963)
Based on a manga.
>8 Man (1963
Had a manga accompanying it.
That's 5 of the 6 first anime.
Do you want me to continue?
>>142189488
The merch industry now is bigger than it was in the 80's.
The 90s bubble crash created a generation of people with less trust in the system than ever, becoming more individualist and having less interest in working themselves to death for "the greater good".
An economical environment in which the country pays you shit wages whilst telling you shikata ga nai.
There are a bunch of reasons that led to the circumstances justifying the attitude animators of this generation have.
>>142188830
They know shit like redline won't sell
>>142189649
based on a manga =/= purely made to promote the manga
wages then =/= wages now
>>142189698
>wages then =/= wages now
Tezuka literally invented those wages.
>>142189698
>based on a manga =/= purely made to promote the manga
But they aren't made purely to promote those manga. Otherwise there would be no BDs, would there?
Remaking the scenes would be pointless if you weren't planning on moving discs.
SHAFT is infamous for giving their anime a complete haul-over just for the BDs.
>>142189588
His interpretation is less of a stretch than yours.
>>142189664
>The merch industry now is bigger than it was in the 80's.
Do you have any numbers or are you just spouting shit?
>>142189761
>Maybe if they put more of their effort into actually animating animation
Akira and GitS have vastly superior animations to any animated western cartoon. They're still basically unknown compared to Disney movies, because the masses don't give a shit about animation quality and are still freaked out by animation movies not intended for children
>>142190372
>Akira and GitS have vastly superior animations to any animated western cartoon.
Better than old school Disney?
I doubt that.
>>142190339
>>142190405
Dude just said "japanimation." How the fuck are you faggots still taking the bait?
>>142189757
http://www.oricon.jp/
This won't go as far back as 1980, but it will show a growing trend in the period it does cover. I hope you speak good moon or the site will be just gibberish.
>>142191840
Kids these days, they don't know.
>>142191900
>name
Don't shill like that senpai.
>>142188830
he basicaly say majority of modern animator is DA-tier and very rare to see anyone learning Loomicism
>>142192109
>Loomicism
What?
>>142188830
When you're making ~$9000 a year, with barely enough money to feed yourself, let alone your family, how are they supposed to put any more effort into animating?
Holy shit. The state of the anime industry is horrible right now in Japan. Some animators CAN and DO do good animation but those are rarer due to most anime not having enough budgets.
I've been thinking about this for a while, but if there was an effort from US/Japan to create a new anime firm in US, there could very well be a much better quality animation due to better pay/living conditions/etc.
>>142192677
>family,
>>142188830
Oshii is an hack and not even an animator.
Miyazaki opinion on the other hand does matter, but I dont' recall him bashing animators.
>>142189252
Anime being ad for merch has been a thing since at least the 70s. As much as I love mecha, I will never deny that it tends to be guilty of being a toy commercial. Anime has been a toy commercial for decades, it's just that what those toys are, and their market has changed.
Most of demanding work is outsourced to Korea anyway. The animators can fully concentrate on drawing the few key frames now and let the outsourcing do the rest.
>>142192741
In that case, wouldn't that mean that not being paid a decent wage is an incentive to not find someone you could marry, or on the other end, why would someone marry somebody who barely is able to fend for themself AND is not even home most of the time.
>>142188830
Why can't animation studios in Japan just take animators more seriously and only hire a set amount of people to animate? I mean, it's a hard job to do, and to be a truly good animator you've gotta have sick drawing skills.
Imagine how much better everything would be if animators were only hired in moderate amounts like concept artists.
>>142189547
>kek
I mean, i know that /a/ isn't cancer free anymore, but is it really so complicated to lurk some time when coming straight from /b/, shitface?
Just delete the thread, mod.
I appreciate your effort, but the thread wasn't very good from the start. You are wasting your time.
Fair call on the deletions. Even discussing it feeds into it.
>>142190405
I'd argue so. Most old Disney stuff is very fluid but also very low in detail. Things like GitS and Patlabor do stunning amounts of detail in /m/ designs and a lot of incredibly intricate visuals. I find that more impressive.
>>142193477
>finds a way
You almost had me going for a second.
>>142193561
They are getting crafty.
>>142193390
That's because low detail stuff means you can do much more complicated animation
Anyway the comparison is shit
The styles of Japan and the West are completely fucking different (all the way down to the backgrounds)
>>142193627
You're not as subtle as you think you are.
>>142188830
>the number of people within this country able to work with such high precision is less than 5 percent.
Their ability to have precision isn't as necessary as when anime was done with cels. Due to digital tools, someone who isn't technically precise can simply re-work the graphic, drawing, or illustration until it looks good enough to be accepted for production. A 4channer not familiar with process flow may compare such work with that of someone else from the old days and say the new work may even look better.
However, that new work took many reviews by either the senior animation staff or the director whereas the other work that was not quite as good but still usable took only one review (it was approved the first time it was submitted for review). Thus, that old guy was far better for process production and less fatiguing for the senior staff and director to work with than new guys who do trial and error until it is good enough to pass inspection. Trial and error is not precision work to a director such as Oshii.
>>142188830
>they’re unable to do exhausting work like their older predecessors
That and the bean-counters farming work out to lesser Korea and 'nam
>>142188830
They really need to up the wages since it's not the bubble era already.
>>142194054
They can't up the wages because they're running on shoestring budgets.
>>142188830
The same thing has been happening here for 70 years. The west has abandoned objective standards for art. Japan has done the same, only more slowly.
>>142188830
That's what happen when you underpaid your animator, twat. What a pretentious bullcrap.
>but now even Mamoru Oshii
this isn't new
he mentioned it back in 08 when asked why sky crawlers had cg planes. phe said there was a lack of animators that could do 2d mechanical animation
>>142194092
I know. But if you want to animators to work OTs without pay, at least give them enough base pay to live and save up.
>>142189252
There is an easy fix to this.
Add to the government a crackpot team of instant killers that can hypnotize or do whatever is necessary to prevent a revolution or a coup d'etat
Make selling merch that isn't BDs illegal, punishable by death.
Make the BD discs like $500 each volume to compensate for the lack of merch.
Make it illegal to ignore BDs, therefore literally everything sells, if you don't buy punishable by death.
Make it illegal to create an anime only for the purpose of advertising a source and leave the adaptation unfinished. Punishable with life in prison because otherwise we'd execute an entire animation studio.
>>142194092
they should just move around the budget
>>142193554
What is stopping from South Korea from emerging with it's own independent animation scene?
>>142194809
Sorry cap'n, your cipher is too complex for this idiot.
>>142194809
>>142194907
>>142194413
/a/ in charge of not understanding a thing about how animation works, as usual
Since sensible people are ITT, I just wanna let you know Hiro's here.
>>546143
>>142195247
Board's /qa/ by the way
sage.
>>142195282
>>142195212
>>142195109
what are you people talking about
>>142195296
Hiro is on /qa/.
>>142195322
So what? Hes on /qa/ all the time.
>>142195382
>Retro anime and today's anime are miles apart in terms of passion.
Bullshit. Plenty of passionate stuff is being released, even nowadays.
See One Punch Man or Konosuba.
>Every anime nowadays is redundant and repetitive
Just like old anime.
>Ontario-tier animation
I don't know what that means, but it's just like old anime.
>LOVE and passion is the difference.
Finds a way?
They produce a lot of anime these days too, so there's just scheduling to consider. I think probably animation directors have to be more lenient just so things can air on time, and this probably leads to people being less technically skilled because it isn't demanded of them.
>>142195322
who cares, he barely understands what people post and he responds in broken english
>>142188830
Miyazaki is just a jaleous jiji frustrated because no one cares about his movies and themes anymore
>>142195597
Mother
FUCKER
Both Miyazaki and Anno were awful animators though.
>>142195646
And it's not like he did anything to help the animation scene other than whine about it.
He complains about a lack of variety in anime, but he complains any time it's anything that isn't borderline misanthropic, anti-soldier, environmentalism.
>>142195709
I sincerely hope you're joking.
>>142195780
>Yaoi anime dominating the scene because of fujoshi.
There's less than 10% yaoi anime this season.
>>142195097
>DEUS EX MAChina
God dammit at this point I'm not even reading the actual content of these posts
>>142195646
For the sake of playing devil's advocate, would it be safe to say one reason Miyazaki catches a lot of flak because of how Disney made him prominent in the US, so people think he's some authoritative voice on anime?
>>142188830
>Miyazaki's complaints about modernanimation
>He fell for the meme
Miyazaki as being complaining about the industry since he day one.
>>142195848
I disagree that digital coloring is inherently a bad thing, nor is cgi.
But yes, it is a shame traditional animation is being lost, but I blame that on old-timers not teaching the younger ones, or giving those younger ones chances to do things like they did when they were younger.
Christ sakes, Kawamori directed the Macross movie when he was 22. A young animator today will most likely never get that chance, even when they get to their 50s.
Korea..
Eh...on a second thought, everything should be done by the japanese only. Popularize the job of an animator. That will boost the economy quite a bit, and if enough females are become animators as well, there may be even a slighly increase in childbirths - because the people who used to stay at home all day may do something resembling socializing, and the ones that succeed at it may get lucky.
It sounds fucking dreamy, but why not do it?
There's no possible way this could backfire in any way.
Anyway, why hasn't anyone ever tried doing this?
I may be naive but this actually has potential IMO.
>>142195889
Come to think of it, when was the last time Miyazaki said something positive about someone who's a contemporary, or has come after him?
>>142195947
Wasn't Naoko Yamada like 25 when she directed K-On?
>>142195985
26 I think. Never mind, I eat my words.
>>142189252
>This will never happen though. They might start of with the intention of making an anime without merch, but the moment it makes oodles of cash they'll come to the realization that they could make even more oodles of cash by releasing merch.
It's not the merch. It's the fact the anime base is tiny as shit. They have to saturate the market with all sorts of merch because they need to create 20 different revenue streams and price points so that autistic NEETS with only neetbux has at least one good they can purchase. Anime needs to find a way to stop relying on basically 5 big spenders in the market, and start generating money from ratings.
Don't worry lads Netflix will save anime and soon everything will be under them and everyone will get bigger checks and budgets.
It's just a matter of time.
>>142195848
I think the best digital art looks as good as the best cel art.
>>142195766
You say that, but many of his films were fairly reactionary. He actively made the movies he thought people ought to have been making. I think the biggest thing an artist can to to make a difference is to make great art which inspires people.
>>142195967
Goddamit, you guys are having way too much fun with this.
You can say what you want. Animation quality has degraded incredibly.
>>142196062
Anime just needs to become a normie thing (such as it has been slowly turning into in the west).
>>142196090
What you're saying is that Miyazaki made movies as a form of activism and not to make something that was, I can't think of a more suitable word right now so feel free to suggest a better one, fun?
>people bashing oshii
>Angels Egg
>Patlabor
>Ghost in the Shell
>>142196120
It would take a long ass time to confirm this claim objectively.
![[EG]Space_Runaway_Ideon_29_BD(720p_10bit)[16EB214A].webm](https://i.imgur.com/WgbkWZo.jpg "[EG]Space_Runaway_Ideon_29_BD(720p_10bit)[16EB214A].webm")
>>142196120
Yeah, the early 80s looked so good.
>>142195985
Trued but consider that K-on was not a big name but the adaptation of a mediocre manga. If you compare the animation of the first an second seasons is obvious that they never expected the show to become so popular. Hell the main seiyu cast was composed of newbies.
oi cunts why the fuck can't I open this thread in a new tab?
>>142196120
you're shitposting buddy
>>142192677
>give anime the jew touch would save it from underpayment
Anime has enough problems as it is, don't mix it up with the american cancer, let the nips solve their own problems alone.
>>142196187
Old Oshii was great, new Oshii just complains and tries to retroactively change or add "meaning" to his older works.
Like how he says Patlabor was actually supposed to be a subversion of mecha series. I've heard how something inside Oshii broke and he got really pessimistic really fast, and it shows in Patlabor 2. I still loved it though.
Just go to the vidya department,no animator who wants actual cash would bother with anime when the vidya industry is bigger there.
So the only reason they are is because they like anime.
>>142196084
It's amazing what kind of pseudo-intellectual drivel you can find on this board. wow
![[HorribleSubs] K - Return of Kings - 05 [720p].mkv_snapshot_18.21_[2016.05.30_16.25.35].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/Tft2voB.jpg "[HorribleSubs] K - Return of Kings - 05 [720p].mkv_snapshot_18.21_[2016.05.30_16.25.35].jpg")
fuck it guys you're all making excellent points while spouting memes
>>142196379
What memes? I don't see them.
>>142196249
no u
>>142196184
I don't like the word activism because it suggests a political agenda which I'd argue isn't always there, but I think he's certainly trying to push a certain worldview which he thinks other works lack. I'd also definitely not say he pushes "fun" aside. To paraphrase him talking about Totoro, he felt that the Japanese were shunning the natural beauty of their country in favour of escapism. "Even in this global age, it's the most local things that can have a worldwide effect. Yet why doesn't anyone make a delightful and wonderful film set in Japan?"
Of course that's exactly what he sets out to do, right? And he inspired a ton of filmmakers.
He's complaining, certainly, but he also recognizes what he wants and actively makes those works. Hardly just whining.
>Basics of movement
That's a poor excuse for not shading your artwork. Something Mamoru has been an offender of for decades now.
Fluidity looks like shit when the entire character is one flat color.
Guys, please stop. Now I'm reading every paragraph at the first letter at every sentences.
>>142196507
I guess what annoys me is how he seems shortsighted on the issues plaguing anime and the culture around. I disagree with the escapism lifestyle that encourages parasitism, but I think that's a symptom of a greater issue in their society. And most animators don't have the pull to realize their dreams like he does. I think it's once again a symptom of a larger problem with the culture.
I think the condemnations of people who resort to escapism and how anime as an industry is stagnant, he ought to ask "what is causing people to resort to escapism and why is anime the way it is?"
Why should animators work hard when in the end, one person is going to get all the credit for it?
Just look at Miyazaki. Do you seriously thing he animated every single one of those movies single handily with no assistance?
Naw, but everyone always attributes how beautiful they are to him and his name.
Why work yourself to death so that some crusty old fart can take all the credit?
>>142195889
I blame those damn trollsubs for that. But yea Miyasaki complaining about the industry is nothing new.
>lots of posts suddenly gone
>>142196761
I'd agree that a lot of the things he takes issue with aren't well founded, I just don't like the notion that he's some grumpy fuck who yells about "kids these days" and doesn't do anything of worth but complain. In making Totoro, to keep with that example, he's trying to rekindle people's love of their country. Trying to encourage kids to go out and explore and get parents to fondly remember their youth. He's absolutely an idealist but he's trying to make a difference.
I agree with pretty much everything you said though, I feel that a lot of what he accuses as escapist media is largely innocuous and any perceived problem he has is almost definitely, as you said, a more deeply engrained cultural one.
>>142197086
>implying it's not the janitor that is doing all these paragraphs and he deletes posts just so people won't notice
Anime is better now.
Better and more sophisticated. On point too. You Luddites should realize that better tech means better animation.
For example, we hardly have loose cells or out of place layers. A lot of layers could be put on top of each other. Lighting has also improved. Lewd shiny thighs wouldn't have been possible in old cel animation. So are bloom effects (although some purists hate that)
I love these advancements. No more limited movement.
Lens flares galore, sure. Of course there are cons. Visually speaking, though? Enchanting is the first word that comes to mind.
We (that is, they) work faster as well. In truth, there's an influx of anime nowadays. Tons of series. Hentai too.
Amazing strides in technology shouldn't be ignored because of your nostalgia.
Greatness can be seen in the latest works out there. Intense visuals. Realistic backgrounds. Luscious movement.
>>142197147
I admit I was needlessly harsh on him and I do like his movies. Still need to watch The Wind Rises though.
>>142197306
I really loved Wind Rises, one of my favourites of his. It sometimes gets a bad rep here, but I hope you're able to enjoy it as much as I did.
>>142196071
A cost off?
Whatever the circumstances there will always be one or more reasons to complain
>>142197201
For fuck's sake.
>>142196187
The work and its author are two separate things.
It feels like you can't criticize modern anime at all without people on here going apeshit
You guys are right, anime today can do absolutely no wrong and is perfect in every way
>>142197201
Goddamit.
>>142197201
Utter bullshit. No cels less hard work and care is done to make anime. Anime can now be done at a push of a button, making it more of an assembly-line of sorts. Blasphemy. Lighting effects is the best you can come up with? Eighties anime involved loads of planning in advance to make a scene work. Tons of line tests. Of course, there's also quality control. Comparing that to the instant gratification of today's anime is nothing short of disgusting. Old anime has soul. New anime is nothing more than paint-by-the-numbers nonsense. Few anime nowadays stand out. Entertainment by otaku standards is lame. Shitty harems? SOLs?
>>142197530
Just wait 10 years for said modern anime to become classics and you can shit on them then.
>>142197530
It's just that most criticisms are inflammatory or appeals from ignorance which naturally provoke people. What's your beef?
>>142197201
Is she having an orgasm?
>>142197201
>>142197607
For fuck's sake. I don't know what made you think that cels equal better aniamtion. No. Does not computer. Stop being afraid of digital ink and paint!
>>142197658
Stomachache.
>The biggest reason why I’ve stopped making anime is because the people who I can do [anime] with are disappearing.
Well fuck, Not even current A class animators in IG can satisfy him anymore.
He have nowhere to go, though. Since IG is the only studio that has realistic animation now, after the ded of old Madhouse & the laziness of Sunrise happens.
SHAFTfag no need to reply.
>>142197201
I will say one thing about you guys. You sure are dedicated.
>>142197711
Are you serious?
>>142197756
Do you honestly believe cels instantly make an anime better?
>>142197711
>this post
I fucking lost it.
Because they never touch a pencil once in their life.
Using computer is easy it but doesn't produce good art.
>>142197201
Is this webm your idea of good animation?
>>142197201
>You Luddites should realize that better tech means better animation.
A master memester memes on topic.
>>142197147
I don't have a problem with calling a spade a spade in cases like this. When you actively play the blame game and that blame is pointedly misdirected, a clear bias is revealed and it should addressed openly.
We live in a time where there is an international generational divide that grows more and more pervasive every day. There's a global economic downturn and overall breakdown in the systems that have marked the face of the 1st world in most of the latter half of the last century. I don't mind when the baby boomer generation notes differences between their generation and millennials, but they do so with a disappointing lack of objectivity most of the time. There's no way around it: the issues they raise are noteworthy, but their analysis of the situation really does boil down to "back in my day" most of the time.
This feels like such a case. There's almost never an acknowledgment of the COMPREHENSIVE history of how we got to where we were, just a short-sighted appeal to the golden days of their youth which happen to align with a drastically different (and in many ways more optimistic) social and economic climate.
>>142197845
Animators still use pencil and paper for almost everything they do.
>>142197791
Cels set the entry barrier for anime industry.
Back in the day, you only got hired when you're artistically skilled enough to work with cels.
Nowadays they hired kids who can use computer but can't draw for shit.
>>142197943
Are you fucking retarded?
>>142197791
Well, of course not. Are any animation techniques superior to others by default? You would think not, but there are actually people who believe it.
>>142195985
It's not difficult to direct moeshit.
Macross is an ORIGINAL mecha series.
No 20s yo can direct it now.
>>142197995
No, anon, you are the retarded one. They draw frames on paper and trace or scan them into software to be digitally colored. This is how cel animation was done too. They didn't draw freehand onto the cels.
>>142198078
Your mother should've aborted you, numbskull.
>>142197871
Dragonball Super is truly set the standards for contemporary animation!
>>142198062
K-on may as well be an original and has fantastic direction.
>>142189252
Ironically, the Evangelion units were partially designed to be hard to make toys of; they're not chunky like Gundams which makes them hard to balance. They already did try to make something that would make money directly, then made a shitload more off merchandise.
Isn't the real issue with Evangelion the way it really put the focus on anime for adults? Or non-kids, at least. There were lots of adult OAVs and movies in the 80s (the stuff that gave anime its original reputation in the west as "cartoons with sex and violence"), but TV anime was still mostly for kids. I've always heard that Evangelion was originally a dinner-hour anime, supposed to be something that kids could watch with their parents, and then Anno went nuts and put in hyper-violence and sex scenes and caused a big controversy, so then the late-night anime business model arose (with Lain, in 97). And since so few people watched it and it didn't make any money from the networks, it moved more and more towards catering to the most hardcore fans with disk and merch sales, and now more as a way to promote source material.
I've heard that narrative a few different place; don't know how true it is.
Can it, you guys.
Originally, cels WERE better-looking than digital.
No way you an deny that!
Figures out the industry found a way to make digital tolerable in a few years.
Ease of use with the same, if not better quality. Look at the post 2007 anime.
Suddenly, in the early 00s digital took over everything. Movies like "Redline" and "The Girl Who Leapt Through Time" are a great example of digital done RIGHT.
Shit, it doesn't make sense to hate digital, it has benefitted the industry a lot.
>>142197201
Ho-hum. Excuse me?
Is that your idea of an argument. Shit, I could excrete a better response than you.
Gone are the days of cels. Instead, we get computers to do the work. Fucking computers. Tablets. Electronics. Digital ink and paint.
Boring. Your "modern" anime is now boring.
Anime is supposed to be dynamic.
Digital ink and paint makes it paint by the numbers. Ergo, lifeless. Utterly lacking passion. Soulless.
Eighties anime is the best because people worked hard for them. X amount of work might be done overseas, but not all like nowadays.
Machines make anime nowadays. Anime should be made by people. Computers should have no place in making anime. Holy shit, digital ink and paint is the worst thing to happen to anime. I wish we were still using cels. No one knows how to animate anymore. Animators depend too much on modern technology nowadays.
>>142198229
what the fuck, I thought I had deleted the 2007 line
>>142198229
Since nobody but reddit formats their posts that way, any and all subtlety was lost. Bravo.
>>142198229
>it has benefitted the industry a lot
Financially not artistically.
>>142198271
For a first post, it's okay. All is well int he world. I forgive you. Love, anon.
>>142198246
>this reddit post
Holy shit, just leave. This is just embarrassing.
>>142197845
That's fucking wrong you retard.
This thread should have been deleted long ago.
>>142188830
I don't know. But I do know the only animator whose work I truly love seeing got his start 20 years ago, and has only recently reached god tier.
>>142198246
I assure you if all the harem anime this year were cel animated people would still call them shit regardless
>>142197871
He's literally memeposting and yet you still respond.
>>142198360
More like move to /trash/
Talented young animators 20-30 years ago made GITS, Akira, Evangelion.
"Talented" young animators these days make what? Kumamiko?
>>142198381
Please. Harem can be done right. Originally, Tenchi was a cel-animated anime. Nowadays, everything is samey. Exactly the same. No originality. Unless people realize what made Eighties anime great, all their works will end up generic. Masturbatory. Boring, Eh. Retarded.
>>142198451
Space Dandy
>>142198451
How is that a problem
>>142198451
Korean-made anime at the present is sub par. Eighties anime is still the best. In terms of present anime, there's only one answer. Talented men and women work on it. Anime beyond existence. It finds a way.
>>142198201
>Lol
Hiroyuki Okiura was 28 when he design GiTS's characters and supervised the animation.
Where is this generation's Okiura?
For the last 20 years, animation quality in anime has been steadily declining. Inability to train young animators is leading to a situation where new talent does not emerge. Now it is up to animation studios to resolve this problem or the future of anime is in danger. Directors and producers have to put effort into finding new talented animators. Seeking new measures to improve the working conditions of animators is necessary to make the industry appealing to young people.
Also, the goverment should start funding animation so that the studios can afford to pay decent salaries to animators.
What will it take for the anime industry to recognize this problem? Animators are their greatest asset and it would be a fundamental mistake to ignore the lack of skilled animators. You can't simply ignore those who are pointing out this issue.
>>142197966
>Back in the day, you only got hired when you're artistically skilled enough to work with cels.
No, cel usage is grunt work. Animators still used pencils and paper. This is common knowledge. Unbelievable. Retro animefags are the worst. Eliminating cels didn't destroy the anime industry.
Oversaturation of anime did. For fuck's sake, there's too much anime.
Let's go back to a time when anime was produced sparsely. Oversaturation equals more shit. Virgin otaku might eat it up, but they're a shrinking niche. Everyone should enjoy anime.
>>142198675
>>142198573
I like you. anon. I really do.
>>142198740
Finally something different!
Thank you anon!
It's like I'm in an alternate universe.
>>142196379
K is an example of studios re-using animations over and over
>>142188830
>old generation
Learn by studying real life.
>new generation
Learn by studying anime.
Do you know what happen when you make a copy of a copy of a copy?
>>142198784
Three people including me have already pointed this fact out.
>>142198838
>he doesn't know
>>142198492
>>142198792
Like you're gifted with something by a powerful being?
>>142198451
This is probably the single worst argument I've ever heard on /a/
holy shit the shitposting has reached a new meta
>o-old animation had these classics!
>your new stuff only has..? lol this one anime from this season!
>>142198792
Hijinks have definitely ensued.
>>142188830
Psycho_pass.webm
>>142198886
I was looking for this, thanks anon.
>In the past, most animators quit because they didn’t have the talent for it.
>But these days, smart and talented individuals are leaving the industry.
Osamu Yamasaki (Japan Animation Creators Association)
>most of the key-animators of AKIRA were around 21 years old back then. Satoru Utsunomiyaさん was ~19 years old. Today's generation is too weak
Bahi JD
>I certainly think that animation is like a handicraft. If you ask me, it’s similar to the miracle that is shrine carpentry. Do you know how many people are weeded out before a single person rises to the top and becomes a qualified shrine carpenter? How much training is required? That’s why I compare animation to shrine carpentry: you simply cannot mass produce it. But now, we’re reaching our limits. If you want to know why, it’s because all the really talented animators that are sustaining the world of hand-drawn animation, the 20 or so of them, are all over 40. So think about it, in another 10 years, what’s going to happen?
Mamoru Oshii
![[HorribleSubs] K - Return of Kings - 05 [720p].mkv_snapshot_14.37_[2016.05.30_16.21.17].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/g10c6WJ.jpg "[HorribleSubs] K - Return of Kings - 05 [720p].mkv_snapshot_14.37_[2016.05.30_16.21.17].jpg")
>>142198794
Agreed. It's very obvious with that big boobed Blue chick. Her attack is always the same - in fact, even in the opening it remains the same.
All the budget went somewhere else, and I'm kinda glad it did. The indoor scenes and the city look like pure sex.
![[HorribleSubs] K - Return of Kings - 05 [720p].mkv_snapshot_00.02_[2016.05.28_16.34.38].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/t8Q9dZ8.jpg "[HorribleSubs] K - Return of Kings - 05 [720p].mkv_snapshot_00.02_[2016.05.28_16.34.38].jpg")
>>142199031
![[HorribleSubs] K - Return of Kings - 04 [720p].mkv_snapshot_19.34_[2016.05.28_16.30.24].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/V17Gw19.jpg "[HorribleSubs] K - Return of Kings - 04 [720p].mkv_snapshot_19.34_[2016.05.28_16.30.24].jpg")
>>142199061
>>142198675
The Young Animator Training Project is literally the government funding studios to have their younger and newer staff make shit. And now we have Death Parade and Little Witch Academia for it, among others. Wasurenagumo and Grandfather's Lamp are also worth noting.
![[Anna] Movie K - Missing Kings (2014) [720p][AAC][E3837004].mkv_snapshot_01.12.59_[2016.05.28_12.47.12].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/9nKyamu.jpg "[Anna] Movie K - Missing Kings (2014) [720p][AAC][E3837004].mkv_snapshot_01.12.59_[2016.05.28_12.47.12].jpg")
>>142199087
>>142199031
>>142199061
>>142199087
Family, the anime is beautiful honeslty, I just wish they had more mulah so they could stop reusing shit, the fight scenes were copypasted from the movie into the 2nd season. So disappointing. Then a lot of QUALITY moments too
>>142199006
Meanwhile at KyoAni
No. Everybody should stop this "cel anime is the best" meme. /v/irgins think that way. End this madness. Retrofaggotry is still faggotry.
Memes aside, anime has advanced. I don't mean otaku fare like harem and SOL. No, I'm talking about modern classics from Makoto Shinkai. Digital anime isn't the death of anime. It's better than ever before. Never stopping. Going to greater lengths.
To ignore the advancements of Japanese animation is to put blinders on your head. Horses, you are not. Elevate your argumentation skills.
Sure, there are missteps like Dragon Ball Super. To be honest, old anime is full of QUALITY too. Retro anime seems great because you're only remembering the classics. All the trash, you've already forgotten. NGE is still fresh in your mind.
All the new anime, the trash remains in recent memory. Retro bias in action. Escape from this lie. Anime has become better.
Chinese cartoons have come a long way. Only idiots are not able to understand this. Digital ink and paint helped make anime faster. Extra entertainment means extra trash, but atop the heap are some treasures.
>>142198834
This to be honest.
>>142199171
>kekani
>good
>>142199314
You forgot 'choose two'
>>142199171
>Keita Nagahara
>Keita
God dammit.
>>142188830
The modern animators they're talking about made OPM.
There's still some hope left.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tF6P_x9diDo
>>142199254
>No, I'm talking about modern classics from Makoto Shinkai.
Makoto Shinkai is the only one even making anything worthwhile?
>>142199437
Fuck off.
>>142199254
Makoto Shitkai movies are pretty average to be honest. The backgrounds might look great but the animation is always sub-par. And to be honest, making static backgrounds isn't that hard.
http://www.mclelun.com/p/tutorial.html
>>142199006
What's the deal with shrine carpentry?
I hate KeitAi spamming, but I love you guys. I just want you to know that.
>>142199254
Digital anime is the death of anime. I miss classics like Akira and Ghost in the Shell. Dumb recap movies and the shadow of what was once Ghibli is all we have left.
Nicer anime can be found in the past. On the other hand, I can't for the life of me remember a classic 2000s anime. Terrible state of affairs, to be honest.
For sure, we have more anime. In terms of quantity, today's anime can't be beat. Now, how about quality? Digital effects are nothing but cheap ornamentation.
Animation remains king.
We don't have anime anymore. Anime nowadays are vessels for niche interests and fetishes. You have no valid point.
>>546226
It's official. Hiro approves of "that".
>Every nostalgia fag in this thread.
>>142199644
I don't know shit about carpentry but it looks awesome.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_ZrISMO7iE
>>142199171
Good thing KyoAni is training the future animators at their school, some of them are already showing promise in the Violet Evergarden CM.
The japanese government needs to fund more training projects, because other studios would rather outsource to Korea and Vietnam than spend their own money and time training new animators
>janitors are starting to pick up on this
>people are still discussing as usual
It must be nice being new to your job. Janitor. But soon you'll stop caring. You're free to delete my post desu.
>>142198652
>>142199006
I'm not a sakugafag or anything, but is it possible that the lack of really talented young people is just because people in general are starting later? A lot of older anime and manga creators seem to have started much younger than is typical nowadays - I know Okiura joined the industry at sixteen, for example. Are people still beginning their careers that young? If they aren't, that would probably go a long way toward explaining why we don't have a bunch of genius twenty-year-olds right now.
>>142199662
Ironic shitposting is still shitposting.
>>142199031
>it has been a really long day.jpg
>>142199455
All the other people are above 40 and from Oishi''s generation.
>>142199401
OPM really feels like the animators never studied real life movement.
>>142199793
Nostalgiafags barely watch old anime anyway.
They watch the same 20 OVAs and movies that every fuck has seen and think that's the norm, then circlejerk about it. Not even worth listening to desu.
I fucking balk every time I see some dumbshit say '90s animation' and pick out a movie like Jinroh, or use it to refer to an artstyle instead of actual animation. Doubly so when said fucker hasn't even watched anything older than 1999.
>>142199934
>Loony Tunes really feels like the animators never studies real life movement
?
>>142199793
So Mamoru Oishii?
>>142188830
Sums up people like BahiJD, to be honest.
He's gotten better recently, but he still doesn't know how humans actually move or know how the body works.
Great for sakuga and action, shit for everything else.
One thing I can't understand is the praise Ufotable gets from casual anime viewers. I've seen many of them comment on how Ufo is the best at animation but aside from the special effects, the hand drawn sakuga scenes all look pretty mediocre, specially Fate swordfights, more often than not you just see a crappy choreographed loop of the same sword clashing animation with 0 weight and physics.
>>142200006
That man is just grumpy because somebody else made K-On! before he had a chance to.
>>142199918
>implying Oishi is the man being talked about
>implying Shinkai's not above forty
>implying above forty is Oshii's generation
>implying talented directors being above forty is remotely the same thing as talented animators being above forty
>>142188830
>Pay people like shit
>In [current year] where young people know how much a shitstick the previous generation are.
>Outsource to countries that hate your guts. (Barring Vietnam).
Jeez I fucking wonder why?
Putting things into perspective, modern anime is just special effects hiding bad animation. Honing your craft isn't an option anymore. Over use of bloom and lens flare is the order of the day. No actual impressive animated movement, though. Entertainment for the new millennium has fallen behind, especially with anime.
>>142189252
This. This is why stupid overly proud whitey with their crunchy subscription are the worst.
Stupid dumb whites.
>>142199171
Kyoani is by far the best studio to work for. Especially because their animators receive a salary instead of being paid per drawing. In other studios animators have to work like slaves under very tight schedule and if their animation isn't completed in time, they don't get paid. This reduces the quality of their work and makes it difficult to make a living as an animator. At kyoani, shedule isn't as tight which means animators can do their job better. It really makes a difference in the quality of animation.
>>142199969
>>142200034
This shit needs to stop.
>>142189252
Merch, you say?
>>142200255
Now we can sell anime merch without even making the anime. Cut out the middle-man.
Genius.
>>142189447
>Gundam was inspired by NGE
>>142200225
Isn't Shaft also a pretty damn good place to work at?
>>142200044
Because normalfags and casuals don't even know what animation is. They see a drawing of a character and they say 90s animation. They see 4-tone shading and they say 90s animation (admittedly, it was more common). They see gore and they call it 90s animation.
Just look at Lancer in this. the only time he's really animated is when he's doing his turn. Otherwise all ufotable do is stitch stills together, super fast and add sparks to distract the viewer. A lot of their fight scenes have one basic movement and then the teleporting stills.
I like how it looks. Ufotable are great at taking shortcuts without people noticing. Like with talking scenes, they'll be mostly still, but introduce a bit of movement, or a camera change when it's dragged out for long enough that people would notice it; or they avoid things like stationary background characters which really exposes stills.
But in terms of animation, they really aren't that special.
>>142189252
Animators have been paid fucking nothing forever, and there's no reason why merch money couldn't make it back to the animators, anyway. Anime is simply an industry built on penny-pinching as much as possible. If you have a problem with that (I don't, since it's the reason the industry has been able to exist and thrive), then blame Tezuka, not Anno.
>>142200186
Hi Tumblr.
>>142200467
>They're commercials.
They've been commercials since fucking Astroboy. Don't kid yourself.
>>142188830
>boohoo these young'uns don't want to work ridiculous hours for crappy wages.
>>142200544
That post is obviously a joke, anon. He even said "anime for mature people like myself."
>>142189129
>I don't know if it's just a trend or because they find it too difficult though.
I don't agree with it, animation shouldn't try to imitate reality it should do things that are unique and can't be done via means of live-action film. I prefered Oshii's works in the 80s, when they were more surreal than realistic and now I want to see more works by creators like Ikuhara, Rie Matsumoto, Kenji Nakamura or Masaaki Yuasa who focus on stylized animation with unique designs. Realism is just boring.
>>142200467
This isn't just shitposting. This is advanced shitposting.
>>142200404
No one really knows what SHAFT is like, but judging by how they usually go off schedule and end up fixing major fuckups in their BDs I imagine the work hours aren't that great,
>>142200467
>Retro anime used to be anime for everyone.
>OVAs
>for everyone
Didn't even bother reading past this sentence. Try again.
>>142188830
Fucking Yutoris, man
>>142199336
They aren't bad, but they're still seriously overrated because of their overuse of rotoscoping and slowly growing amount of clutter. It's overproduced as fuck, which seriously bogs down the actual quality.
>>142189252
>All these people should be pointing fingers at Anno and his kickstarting of the merch>anime era, rather than complaining about the new generation of animators.
Evangelion is actually pretty known for the fact that it kickstarted a new era of more experimental anime in the tv anime format, just like we had in the 80s with movies and OVAs, which was triggered by the success of Nausicaa. It's the 80s when tv series were made purely for kids and to sell toys. The only original stuff we got was Gundams and those were made to sell robot toys which influenced the look of the series to a large degree. Eva said fuck this and even if it sold well later on the toy manufacturers didn't have any say in the show's actual production. If not for Eva we would never get the huge inflow of original series in the 90s like Lain, Bebop and Utena. The efects of that are still evident to this day.
>>142200694
>OVAs represent all retro anime
Reading isn't your strong point.
>>142200467
Mod-proof shitpostingfinds a way.
>>142200713
>rotoscoping
If you want to see what actual rotoscoping looks like.
>>142200912
Retro TV series are even worse at actual animation, or at the very least worse at hiding the fact that they have no budget for anything fluid.
>>142200544
An adoption is not nessiarly a commercial. Using this logic you would say that Avengers movies are commercials for the comic books, it's really the other way around. The comics have piss sales and the movies go on to break all the records.
Today you have anime that actually lose money on the DVD sales and commercial revenue but get a small profit because they exist to sell some external product.
Did you know anime used to be able to compete with movies? OVAs were a rental market. You had mainstream, normal, non-Otaku people that were willing to rent single OVA episodes at $5 a piece. And they were willing to pass over the biggest holey wood movies which were also on the shelves.
Remember when Ghibli were rivaling Disney for "most talented animation staff"? The staff of anime studios now can barely handle basic character movement.
>>142200225
No, the best studion to work for is Polygon Picture.
Even if everyone went back to cel shading and had unlimited budget with the best animators the styles and stories are still the same
People would still bitch about stuff not being like "the good old days"
>>142201028
>An adoption is not nessiarly a commercial.
I'm not referring to Astroboy being an adaptation of manga, but how the anime was used to advertise Meiji chocolates and later Astroboy merch.
>>142200971
No matter how many times I see that clip it's still painful to watch
>>142200971
Rotoscoping can be done both well and badly.
>>142201028
>Remember when Ghibli were rivaling Disney for "most talented animation staff"? The staff of anime studios now can barely handle basic character movement.
I'm not quite sure what you're on about, Japan has basically the strongest crop of 2D animators anywhere at this point.
Old anime lacked stylistic variety, we never got anything like the works of Kenji Nakamura or Masaaki Yuasa in the realm of adult-oriented animation. This is truly a great time to live. Yuasa himself has more visual variety in his works then all the adult-oriented shit in the 80s combined.
>>142201242
>I'm not quite sure what you're on about, Japan has basically the strongest crop of 2D animators anywhere at this point.
He's referring to how many studios only have the animators do key frames and then outsource to other countries to get the actual animation done.
>>142201041
What the fuck do you even do as a Polygon employee? They've got the second-most employees in the whole damn industry after Toei, and they've only done like two shows.
