Why does high budget cel animation look so much better than modern high budget digital animation?
Is there a reason? Even with Ghibli, the older cel stuff just looks better and "blends" better together than their more modern Digital stuff.
I've also noticed it in remastered shows where they touch up some scenes with digital animation, the digital animation just seems too clean and doesn't blend as well.
Could anyone explain it in any detail why this happens?
>>140886245
why are some old cars better than modern cars?
because the greats are remembered for being great. your "modern" is still filtering the trash out.
but i agree. much like cars- they dont make them like they use to. half assed is good enough to sell now-a-days.
You can't use GITS considering it is one of the best animated movies in history. Very few can rival it.
>>140886394
Meanwhile in real life...
>>140886245
Because digital animation allows to cut much more corners.
>>140886245
Budget has nothing to do with how good an animation is.
It's all about the people involved and how much they care about the shit they make.
If someone is really passionate and into it and also happens to be a genius animator it doesn't matter if you give him a penny or a billion he will produce the same quality key animation for what he's worth.
>>140886245
The people who used to work on those are expensive veterans.
As someone who does reproductions and repairs of old posters, it's the colour and texture.
For example look at modern Soviet posters
https://obeygiant.com/images/2009/09/Z-TRIP-Shep-Europe-fnl1-500x666.jpg
That is a poster done in Illustrator most likely in a Soviet poster style fashion, notice how uniform the colour is, the lack of texture, the lack of grain, the incredibly clean line work. Compare it too an original here
http://artinrussia.org/wp-content/uploads/Bonnel-Poster-Plate-3.jpg
Now notice the difference, the original is done likely using a Lithograph. Notice the slight permitations in the colours, the subtle blending of colours, the grain of the material, how the line work isn't perfectly clean.
Personally I like hand done stuff more. A lot of people like the really clean work of digital, but in my opinion it can never hold a candle to actual physical work.
Good example in anime is say compare End of Evangelion to Rebuild and look just how much better everything in EoE looks and blends together.
>>140886245
You can't hardly train most animators nowadays because the entry level(in-betweeners) pay is so low for Japan's living standards that they won't stay for that studio very long. Add to the fact the overtime work.
And as I read on an article, most in-betweeners are making it as a "hobby". They are mainly self/independent(I don't know the term) published doujin/manga artists that make in-betweening as part of their hobby. That's the term. A hobby. They don't strive on making it as their serious career/craft. Their main focus is on manga/doujins.
With these factors, the masters of the past can't hardly train new generation masters because they lack skilled "apprentices"(if that's the right word).
And with that, quality of animation (sakuga, for this thread's topic) could drop as time goes.
Also, could be other factors. Lack of skilled character design(include the color design on these), background, directing, etc.
>>140886833
>>140886620
Except that everyone wants this genius animator so yes, budget is a very fucking important thing you niggerlover. Wages have to be paid, your shithole's rent needs to be paid, during winter you have to pay for heating so that your genius animator doesn't freeze to death. You also have to make sure he gets something to fucking eat and if you spend everything on this one fag you won't be able to employ other important people. Wow your genius animator is now fucking useless. Now imagine there are two of these.
Nice commie utopia you got there though.
Colour.
>>140886245
The same reason you faggots still listen to vinyls.
>>140886948
You are a literal retard.
The budge doesn't affect the quality, it's the person involved.
You can get that genius for a minimum wage because he might be interested in your project more than doing a higher paid job for some garbage he doesn't want to do.
Sure money matter in terms of getting the talents on board, but they don't affect their fucking talent, they're still the same regardless of it.
This shit is so fucking obvious you probably already feel stupid even arguing about it.
Way to read shit between the lines and out of context ESL-kun.
>>140887125
Jesus fucking Christ.
>>140886431
I agree with OP. Maybe it's just a case of personal preference but shit like Akira, IRIA Zeiram, Memories, all look far better than moder Sci fi anime. Even lower budget examples like LoTGH have a certain charm that's hard to find nowadays.
what is redline
>>140887054
>The budge doesn't affect the quality, it's the person involved.
The people employ themselves apparently and clearly they also pay themselves. Ignoring this for a second, you clearly have never worked a single second in your entire life considering how you don't seem to understand that the quality of the workplace and surrounding directly affects the quality of your work.
Apparently you also fail to understand that a higher budget, providing you don't spend it on shit, let's the genius animator do a whole lot more. Like finishing certain things faster but with the same quality because he doesn't have to use technology from the last century, let alone work with people that are several levels below his skill level.
The answer is cherrypicking.
>>140887314
Something nostalgiafags tend to forget about.
>>140887054
Sorry but with your posts I think your still a student and living with a rich family that you don't have to work for part time.
Skilled/Talented people will demand for a higher pay/raise pay because they do the job effectively and with more quality. In any job.
Sure there are people who accept lower pay compared to their skill level because it's their passion. But those are a few.
>>140887614
>sorry but hurr durr
>Sure there are people who accept lower pay compared to their skill level because it's their passion. But those are a few
>agreeing anyway
Not that guy, and while I agree that budget is somewhat related to quality, it's not completely related.
>>140887614
You are free to name one famous animator whos pay is even remotely comparable to VA, Director or scenario writer of anime.
>>140886245
>>140886855
What is this, a comparison for ants?
>>140887614
You clearly don't know what your talking about and have no experience in the undutry so just stop
>>140889910
*industry
>>140887125
there are people who say 2011 is the way to go.
>>140886245
You just like the visuals of cel animation. Animation-wise, there still a lot of great stuff made after the transition to digital colouring and composite. It does not change the quality of animation, in the end it's the animator skill that matters.
>>140889415
This sequence shows some pretty nice lighting and glow effects, but the shading is actually pretty basic and there is very little detail work - they choose busy shots where everything is drawn roughly.
That one tiny shot where you can see the drops of sweat on that guy's face - that's as far as they go with respect to detail, and it's pretty lousy.
>>140890362
It's the same with any artistic medium.
Digital can help reduce the skill entry point thereby opening the path for cheaper animation.
However, it can also be used to take a skilled animators work to levels never though possible before.
For example. This one piece was created by a single guy, yet it surpasses the fluidity and detail of most animation that used cells.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBvbNs7WSII
Because during the era of cel animation the animators were overall more experienced and better in every department. Same applies to western 2d animation. Close to 97% of modern animators are sloppy and undisciplined.
>>140890669
The detail level is average as far as character designs go. The effects are simplified, focusing on basic form and outline but that's nothing new in animation and shouldn't necessarily mean it's lesser work.
high budget digital animation is usually the western animation, which means overblown budgets for everything.
the usual animation has sakuga in which talented people do one thing they good at, just like in op's pic.
>>140890822
>Because during the era of cel animation the animators were overall more experienced and better in every department.
It's just a matter of aesthetic preferences, OP
>>140886245
>That scene
Aaah, my first whyboner.
I don't know guys, if these people cared THAT much about money they wouldn't be in animation in the first place.
Because during the era of cel animation the industry wasn't made almost entirely of autistic, misanthropic otaku that can't stand looking at people and only learn to draw and animate by looking at what other autistic misanthropic otaku draw and copying that.
Miyazaki was right.
>>140891909
The people at the top making the decisions are not the people making the anime.
>>140891983
Successful keyframe artists are still not the people at the top making the decisions. And you don't get into the industry with a guaranteed position as a high-ranked animator anyway. The only people making actual money are the execs.
![[a-s]_full_metal_panic!_the_second_raid_-_01_-_the_ending_day_by_day__rs2_[1080p_bd-rip][19EF2772].mkv_snapshot_10.24_[2015.06.06_19.02.04].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/PbWmlOu.jpg "[a-s]_full_metal_panic!_the_second_raid_-_01_-_the_ending_day_by_day__rs2_[1080p_bd-rip][19EF2772].mkv_snapshot_10.24_[2015.06.06_19.02.04].jpg")
>>140886245
Because you like the grain.
Let's have a few examples I shoddily made with Photoshop's default grain thing.
Here's the original frame.
>>140886245
I don't know mate, I like both.
>>140891958
Yes it was, that's why the mecha anime was so detailed and immaculately animated by hand. Now it's lazy CGI shit.
>>140886833
>>140886855
This is more a result of the chosen artsyle rather than the compositing method. Any real difference is in what >>140886722 explains. If they want to do crazy subtle shading in digital compositing, they can.
>>140892167
Here's it with just the grain added.
>>140886245
tv shows have always looked worse than films and OVAs, not because of budgets but because of time constraints
>>140892231
And here's it with the grain, vibrance at +100 and saturation at -20.
>>140892218
More like because you're watching shit by Sunrise that has pretty much unlimited budget and comparing it to seasonal anime.
>>140892218
>the mecha anime was so detailed and immaculately animated by hand
Not all of them, you're just remembering the best ones. Mecha shows in the 80s were as common as the shitty harems of today back then. For every mecha show with good detail you had 20 that were cheap as fuck packed with reusing scenes for fights
The only thing that matters in animation is who's holding the pen, not what the pen is used to draw on.
>>140886245
This part always bothered me about the movie. Why try to do this when she just was staling for time? Almost got herself killed.
>>140892310
Impressive. I'm not OP, but that does look better. I wonder if there is any script or filter to make all shows look like this.
>>140886833
Top looks better.
>>140886855
Left looks better.
You can't lump everything together.
>>140892167
this.
There's tons of well animated stuff and poorly animated stuff from almost any era. It all comes down to the amount of lines and the film grain.
>>140886948
Japanimanimator here.
Almost all key animators are paid a flat rate per cut that is decided per production. There is almost no "I drew 1000 super sakuga folded keyframes so give me 4 times your standard pay."
Some negotiation is possible, but you don't get a higher per cut wage just for being skilled.
>>140892310
same reason the order 1886 looks good despite the raw output looking like sauce engine before post processing
it's kinda like the lack of detail gets filled by your mind and imagination and suddenly appears more detailed
>>140892453
There's probably a shader of some sort if you look around hard enough.
>>140892310
That actually does look better.
![Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou - OVA 1 [Figmentos] [2A6BF587].mkv_snapshot_00.21_[2016.04.30_17.03.57].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/1cgirtU.jpg "Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou - OVA 1 [Figmentos] [2A6BF587].mkv_snapshot_00.21_[2016.04.30_17.03.57].jpg")
Why does low budget cel look better than low budget digital?
>>140892225
Whenever they switch to that in the show it kind of throws me off. It's so different than most of the animation in the show.
>>140886855
right.
>>140886833
top.
![[orz] Nobunagun 01 - Oda Nobunaga (BD 720p AAC) [9083EFD9].mkv_snapshot_20.47_[2015.02.03_11.57.52].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/WdlhT2r.jpg "[orz] Nobunagun 01 - Oda Nobunaga (BD 720p AAC) [9083EFD9].mkv_snapshot_20.47_[2015.02.03_11.57.52].jpg")
>>140892563
Low budget cel usually has pretty low res so >>140892527 comes into play.
Plus it's not like there aren't some visually impressive low-budget digital series if the creators give enough of a shit.
![[HorribleSubs] Gundam Reconguista in G - 08 [720p].mkv_snapshot_10.49_[2014.11.14_19.23.51].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/kCR7mYv.jpg "[HorribleSubs] Gundam Reconguista in G - 08 [720p].mkv_snapshot_10.49_[2014.11.14_19.23.51].jpg")
You can say whatever you want about the actual show and I'm not going to bother arguing about that, but denying that G no Reconguista looks good is straight up lunacy.
>>140892747
Only the mech fights looked good mate.
>>140892563
>YKK
>low budget
There's a number of aspects
- Lower budgets - barely any movies have been as visually impressive in the past decade as they were in the 80s and 90s
- Lack of texture - film grain, cel shadows, painted backgrounds, texture in the linework (xeroxed pencil work), all serves to give the animation not only a more hand made look, but often just adds the impression more is going on on screen than it actually is. The digital equivalent of a simple scene can look stilted and static even if it's technically identical.
- Colour choices - Digital gives artists the full spectrum to use, whereas in the past their choices were not only more limited, but they had to think more about them (couldn't change their mind about a colour on the fly like they can today). There's also way that actually shooting onto film that affects colour, and often shows for TV would end up mastered onto tape, this dullens colour but also makes it appear more coordinated, in the sense that even disparate bright primary colours get softened and work better next to each other, whereas now they can pick any colours they like and that's what goes on the screen, like the digital side here >>140887125
Not to mention, say a character wears green and in in a darkened firelit room, in the past they'd have to think about what colour that would become and would try to get a pleasing result, whereas today they'll put a colour filter over the standard colour from the model sheet and use that to colour the scene, if it's big budget they'll probably put more thought over it but if it's low budget made in a rush, they'll just be like "well this hideous result must be the correct one" rather than use any artistic knowledge.
Really I think a lot of it comes down to colour.
- Also the realistic effects of light scattering in the lens. There's a lot of blurry smudgy shit happening these days that in an attempt to soften everything and look more natural, only manages to make it look more computery: >>140892225
>>140886245
Cel animation is actual drawings, closer to actual art
Digital animation is wacom tablet and computerized colors
What's with the Japanese not using anti-aliasing and any shading at all in low budget CGI?
>>140892747
G-Reco has that problem of not blending that OP mentioned.
>>140892891
Most anime is still drawn on pencil and paper, and most people wouldn't even be able to tell if it's digitally drawn in the few instances it actually is. There are some shows this season with their main animators working digitally but people who don't know about those animators can't even tell. The notion that digital animation is inherently inferior to pencil and paper drawing is nonsense.
>>140892851
But that's not to say there haven't been good looking digital works. But they need to have as much thought put into them. Eg: Blood the Last Vampire, FLCL, The Animatrix, that Kill Bill segment, basically anything high budget from the birth of digital animation, tons of work and thought had to be put into those, there was no space for laziness.
Also Satoshi Kon's Paprika had good colours, and plenty of Studio 4C works
>>140892891
>Digital animation is wacom tablet and computerized colors
I hate wacom tablets too. You just press button and AI draw for you. Fuckin crutch for no skill people
>>140893062
Is that what those Cintiqs do because my old ass graphire tablet is more of a handicap than anything, I went back to paper after years of tablet and I was so much better
I don't have any screencaps on me right now, but Nyaruko's higher-than-normal resolution lineart makes for razor sharp lines that seem to fix a lot of my problems with digital lines.
So maybe once the lines are a high enough resolution the problem resolves itself.
>>140892747
>>140892918
I don't know about some of the bright, incongruous colour choices, but I did like the effort put towards texturing the linework
>>140892891
>tfw nips can't draw anymore
>got ripped away from their pencils and forced onto a desktop computer
>>140893281
The base animation is still done on paper you know.
It's the inking where it becomes a problem.
>>140887125
Holy shit.
>>140887125
Right looks cleaner/better
>>140887125
Right has worse art and coloring.
>>140893321
It isn't inked, the clean-up animation is still done with pencils.
>>140893146
Yes. Cintiq are for hacks. Real artists draw on paper!
>>140893321
Cleanup is still almost all done on paper
Only paint is digital
Unless you're talking about aliased lines being the problem. I think Reconguista did a good job with the filter they used though. KLK had digitally added cel shadows and shit, so if people really wanted to reproduce older looking animation sky=limit with After Effects
I, for one, look forward to more animators adopting digital animation. It makes sense to do so since much of the production process is digitized already, might was well go all the way to make things efficient. That way there won't be retarded workflows like WIT studio having to print out CG backgrounds on the key animation sheets to act as a guideline for the key animators during Shingeki no Kyojin's production.
>>140893062
The sword looks like a feather.
>>140892708
You posted the wrong picture, right? Because Nobunagun looked like shit.
>>140893498
What kind of paper though?
>>140894510
Toilet paper.
>>140894574
>ahegao-bathroom-tissue.jpg
>>140886833
>>140894510
Don't use paper, use glass.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_glass_painting
>>140893321
How do they do painting anyways? Each frame in photoshop?
>>140886245
>Why does cel look better than digital
>Why does old look better than new
Because people cared more about them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yCp43hkDsQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZ9DsqshyPo
I don't think I've ever seen it brought up, but does anyone know what Hiroyuki Imaishi has had against high definition the past few years? I'd be curious to know if the native resolution for his shows is really low or if they just blur it afterwards.
I remember people being disappointed the picture was no crisper when Panty and Stocking BDs came out
>>140887287
>Akira as a point of comparison
You're really just reinforcing his point.
>>140886245
Because you're a nitpicking nostalgiafag.
>>140894897
The newer one looks better, you can feel the atmosphere especially in the second picture,, but the old one's colors in the third picture and the ship's design look better (at least for me, I like how it looks like a painting).
>>140895900
I actually like that slightly blurry aesthetic, it seems more "natural" in a way.
>>140886245
I think its a matter of consistency. In cel animation everything is rendered in the same way so the image has a consistency to it that adds to the illusion of reality it's trying to create.
With Digital and to a greater extent CG assests that have been produces through vectors or modeling look really jarring compares to the hand drawn frames and just makes the whole thing look less satisfying. You''l be there gripped in the action and some shitty CG will just pull you straight out.
I think it's getting better though, digital is used much better than say on the 2000's and studios like Ufotable make good use of subtle CG to make the animation really shine.
>>140897165
Digital can be just like cel animation though.
I don't think there's an objectively better style. There are just different ways to portray stuff. Not to mention I think that it goes beyond the "older way" vs the "newer way". The JoJo anime for example isn't I guess technically proficient, but it does such a good job of using minimal motion to show maximal action, and something like that works very well for JoJo because by using such a style it maintains a lot of the cooler little subtleties the glorious manga art had.
This is unfair. Aside from artstyle there's a huge difference in skill with the directing and composing in general
![The_Wings_of_Honneamise_(1987)_[720p,BluRay,x264]_-_THORA.mkv_snapshot_00.04.27_[2016.04.30_21.59.29].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/xS58RbR.jpg "The_Wings_of_Honneamise_(1987)_[720p,BluRay,x264]_-_THORA.mkv_snapshot_00.04.27_[2016.04.30_21.59.29].jpg")
![The_Wings_of_Honneamise_(1987)_[720p,BluRay,x264]_-_THORA.mkv_snapshot_00.01.26_[2016.04.30_21.57.33].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/inmJLOo.jpg "The_Wings_of_Honneamise_(1987)_[720p,BluRay,x264]_-_THORA.mkv_snapshot_00.01.26_[2016.04.30_21.57.33].jpg")
>>140900349
![The_Wings_of_Honneamise_(1987)_[720p,BluRay,x264]_-_THORA.mkv_snapshot_00.01.13_[2016.04.30_21.57.15].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/g8PXuze.jpg "The_Wings_of_Honneamise_(1987)_[720p,BluRay,x264]_-_THORA.mkv_snapshot_00.01.13_[2016.04.30_21.57.15].jpg")
>>140900445
>>140886245
Twice the work to look 10% better for consumers that are, for the most part, mouth-breathers that can't tell the difference.
>>140892583
It's for a reason, that shading indicateswhich characters are for breding
>>140892225
They can do it when they choose to.
>>140886245
Cause it had actual effort put into it.
>>140886773
Most modern producers don't care about training new animators cause they are entirely in the scene because they figure they can make a lot of money off of the fanatical otaku the late night anime LN/VN boom brought in in the mid to late 2000's. They actually don't give the slightest damn about animation beyond whether it contains elements they figure can be marketable for their own commercial ends. A character designer that can put out a desirable character image people will fap to is valued substantially more highly than a great sakuga key animator by the industries producers and probably most of /a/ and 2ch too. Once the industries last remaining vets that are at studios like Sunrise, Bones, I.G etc. retire it's really going to be noticeable since they haven't been allowed or able to train the next generation in their techniques at all.
>>140886245
Digital composition works just fine, no need for cels.
>>140891110
Replying with a greentext quote of something someone said and an image isn't a valid argument. In fact it literally doesn't prove anything at all.
>>140886855
>>140886833
nice dubs
>>140901891
Whew, looks so crisp and clean now.
>>140902313
I know, it's terrible
>>140901891
I like how it's more colorful in the new version. That's something that digital has over old techniques.
I think both cel and digital are equal, though- both have their advantages and limitations. I miss seeing janky hand-drawn animation as time goes by for some reason. I guess it's nostalgia.
>>140901891
This would be better served by using a screencap from the recent remaster
>>140901891
Someone explain to me what there is to like about the left side. cause it looks like shit.The colors, the lines, the shading, zenbu.
>>140886394
Cars today are, in every objective way, superior to cars from 30 years ago.
>>140902965
The less accurate line work, film grain, and slight bleeding between some of the background elements especially grants a certain softness to the image that really can't be imitated with digital composition.
As far as colors go the washed out color pallate of the original NGE matches the show's tone much better than more saturated and clear tones in the the Rebuilds.
Shading.
It's really just shading being better. The colors were "grittier" or blended more closely back then with cell shading, which you can chalk up to preference, but an objective criteria where older anime is simply better is shading.
>>140886245
It's because of outsourcing. in the 80s and 90s (especially the 80s), western tv animation was outsourced to japan. As a byproduct of this, japanese animators from the 80s and 90s were getting tons of on the job training. In the 90s, however, outsourcing to japan started becoming less popular, with western studios either doing it domestically, or outsourcing to other asian nations like korea and taiwan. by the 2000s, nobody was outsourcing to japan anymore, and the japanese themselves were outsorceing to other asian nations, as they still are today.
>>140890669
quality =/= detail.
>>140886833
nge wasn't high budget, for one.
>>140886245
also House of small Cubes is gr8 looking.
>>140904728
fuck I hate when people like you start writing like an autistic person as soon as it's about reviewing something
>>140893142
I'm sure we can get this with 100% CGI soon which is fucking awesome, AJIN already looks something like this
>>140886245
Go watch some early Disney animation.
watch some stuff from the 80s like 0081. looks better than most garbage these days as well. and it was a fucking OVA that came out almost 30 years ago... the new style with digital looks bad a lot of times in not just anime, but western cartoons as well. the whole production work is suppose to be easier but it looks like it lacks style or any sort of love.
>>140895748
Theat's not a good comparison to make. The PPG reboot is still bad by today's standards. you want a better comparison? try comparing the original PPG to Steven Universe.
>>140892310
All that hand drawn soul!
>>140903359
Not in curb weight.
And most obviously, styling. Though I think car styling has gotten a shitload better than it was for a long time these last 5 years or so.
Why don't studios simply add a grain filter on everything since it's scientifically proven to blend the animation with the background? It's not a perfect solution but at least it's better than bare digi-paint.
>>140898867
This. All these comparison images have nothing to do with the format and everything to do with the individual examples. It's like comparing Sailor Moon to Crystal and then blaming digital.
>>140908293
With streaming sites like Crunchyroll now actually funding anime, I doubt they'd vouch for something like that which would bloat the fuck out of the filesizes (were the compression set to preserve the noise)
Having grainy footage helps the simple colors and shapes of animation to blend in together into a scene. Whereas as the simple visual information of digital footage can make the shapes more disconnected and therefore flatter. Of course grain isn't the only way to get the effect and I'm not saying digital is bad or somehow inherently flawed. That's just the effect grain has.
>>140908912
Ok, so what we need is a way to make noise not use bandwidth!
Quick, invent a filter!
>>140908912
Netflix is producing their own anime now, and given their sheer scale and how they already stream shitloads of high-action live action shows I don't think they're going to give two shits about how much bandwidth their shows use. Only little guys like Crunchyroll would even consider that.
>>140895900
To me the linework for their works seems quite soft in general so it could just be an aesthetic choice, as weird as it sounds.
>>140909968
Think again man.
Netflix is investing boku bucks in encoding too.
>>140886245
Because you remember all the well animated scenes, but not the 12 fps non action scenes and still frames used to eat time. Cell looks great at it's peak and shit at it's lows. Anime is more consistent over all now and even with low sales can generate enough revenue for a season 2.
>>140909997
It's nothing to do with how the frames are drawn though. That's a key frame you posted, the final cleaned up linework is always much tighter. It's unlikely the cleanup artists worked with blunt pencils or something (it's make life harder for the colourists for one thing). The blurriness is happening when it's all in the computers
>>140910407
>Because you remember all the well animated scenes, but not the 12 fps non action scenes and still frames
We've been mostly talking about the quality of the image, not the animation. Most of this thread is still screengrabs.
>>140910520
>quality of the image
I think that is very subjective, I really list post 2000 anime. 80's anime can look like shit.
>>140901891
Right is better.
>>140910436
Oh yeah of course the digital inking will be tighter, but the cleaned up keys are still quite loose and 'soft'.
>>140910787
>digital inking
those are pencil lines, anon
>>140893085
And what is this?
>>140910849
Oh shit you're right, the aliasing and those bright pink lines threw me off completely.
>>140910787
>Photo of a print in a book of a scan of a pencil drawing, taken in a dimly lit room on a mobile phone with high image compression
Why ever would this drawing look "soft"?
>>140911168
But I posted that as an example of tight linework.
>>140909997
>>140910436
>>140910787
There's just something great about seeing artwork in the raw.
>>140903359
not in build quality. not in reliability. not in weight curb. stupid kid.
>>140910787
That isn't cleaned up.
>>140892527
>it's kinda like the lack of detail gets filled by your mind and imagination and suddenly appears more detailed
This.
>>140910929
5 wallpapers per second.
>>140905894
I was comparing the awesomely animated movie to the Reboot. The old PPG was better than any show they have today.
>>140905589
Are you kidding anon Ajin looks like shit.
>>140911609
That Hyouka picture is cleaned, not digitized of course, but it's definitely cleaned up.
>>140912006
It's not, the clean up image wouldn't have the loosely pencilled in shading. It's a key frame by a key animator.
>>140896124
I think a lot here just has a lot more to do with scene direction as well.
>>140912006
It's definitely a keyframe meaning it has to be cleaned up by inbetweener agian before scanning.
KyoAni's animator just draw ridiculously clean keyframes.
>>140912350
>>140911225
>>140905589
>movie budget
>studio with years of CG experience
>this is what we get
They're making progress. But I think we need a few more years for it to be good instead of just tolerable.
>>140912499
>>140904728
Zeta gundam had no shading most of the time.
Sometimes I wonder if you people have actually watched any old shows.
>>140904728
>cels
>or blended more closely
Hah. HAHA.
Good one.
>grittier
They can do that just fine if they want to. They usually just don't.
>>140912765
This, Cell was nothing magical, studios just got more cost effective with things like shading and blending so that they can outsource to Korea and China as hiring popular artist became more and more expensive.
>>140892851
I think you are heavily underestimating the amount of effort that goes into choosing colors.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sfo5BW1vGog
>>140912963
>3D
too shiny. chins are like spades
>2D
the looped hair closeup needs more frames, looks like a mass of agitated sea anemones like that
>>140889415
source?
>>140914368
YZQ
>>140914528
>YZQ
aw. I was hoping it was something good.
>>140886245
What's Major's 1 rep max deadlift?
So then why has directing gotten worse in general?
>>140915035
It's because only good directing stands the test of time. You're thinking about it wrong.
>>140915035
It hasn't.
>>140901835
Was listening to Cars by Gary Numan when looking at this.
>>140914850
What is this? It seems like it's not a key frame.
>>140917307
Hibike Euphonium
>>140912449
That's actually pretty damn good.
>>140917407
>all those lines on instruments that must be drawn over and over
KyoAni animators must be gods. I can't imagine drawing instruments is ever in your skill set unless you really aspire to be great.
Obviously there's been no lack of examples of shit art+animation of both types. There's no distinction between cell and digital in terms of how much of it is high quality.
Here's what I think is the big differentiator... Simply put, impressive cel animation bumps up against the limits of its medium. Think about it: the constantly cited classics all broke boundaries of some sort (Akira's amazing use of parallax for instance). They were so good that the dominant consumer media of the time (VHS, DVD) weren't even capable of fully and properly conveying these pieces.
On the other hand, even best examples of high quality digital animation out there hardly push any kind of limit. They may look good, but aside from raw fidelity they're not doing anything that hasn't been done by a preceding cell production.
(continuing)
>>140917736
It was certainly a nightmare for the show's instrument animation director.
>>140917407
Whoever animates that is going to be relieved when Hibike is over. Probably will get a movie after S2 though.
>>140917791 (cont)
And therein lies the real problem: studios, for the most part, aren't pushing limits. They aren't trying to impress anybody except maybe their bean counters. Why? I'd blame the state of the economic climate surrounding anime these days, but I'm no expert.
TLDR Digital animation is fully capable of being just as amazing and MORE than cell animation could ever aspire to be, but nobody shoots for the moon any more.
>>140911526
>not in build quality
My car has 5 cup holders anon. thats better than any old car you could name off the top of your head
>>140917736
its funny that they put so much work into the trumpets yet sameface the fuck out of every series theyve ever made
>>140892310
Fuck.
Grain looks so good.
>>140917791
>On the other hand, even best examples of high quality digital animation out there hardly push any kind of limit. They may look good, but aside from raw fidelity they're not doing anything that hasn't been done by a preceding cell production.
Some animators have taken advantage of digital animation though. Thanks to digital composite, animators like Shinya Ohira can use as many layers as they like unlike with cels where their work would become unfilmable at some point. Then there's Mitsuo Iso and Kou Yoshiari who use digital processing to touch up their colours and effects animation. Finally we have animators who animate digitally, they tend to take advantage of the various tools in the software like using different "brushes" to draw so we get some pretty interesting approach to effects animation and an interesting depiction of form in some cases.
>>140893085
>>140893142
Shinkai's stuff definitely looks great. I wonder if it's the art direction/style or budget.
>>140917407
I want this frame!
>>140918254
I'd say that's much more the fault of the character designer than the animators
>>140918325
It's cool that at least a few out there are taking advantage of the potential posed by digital animation, but they're definitely a minority.
Personally I think the next leap in hand-drawn animation is going to be a combination of resolution + detail, and it's going to require the development of specialized hardware. I'm thinking small-desk-sized (35"-50") digital light table PCs that frames are directly drawn onto, skipping paper altogether and making drawing incredible detail much, much easier by breaking paper size limits without requiring a clunky tablet or scrolling around all over the place on a tiny screen. This device would be helpful for coloring as well, making it much more practical to hand-shade frames.
With this setup, productions at 4k and higher suddenly become a lot more practical and pushing the limits of digital animation becomes considerably easier.
>>140918254
nice meme
>>140890822
This is awesome.
What's it from?
>>140890822
The best thing about Magnetic Rose was the character animation desu
>>140911526
>not in build quality. not in reliability.
Just kill yourself you braindead retard
>>140918687
Magnetic RoseKon's worst film
>>140894897
But left was a TV series and right was a high-budget movie trilogy re-adaptation almost twenty years later by the original director, which was given lots of time and funding due to the popularity of said TV series
>>140912449
The problem with trying to mimic 2D with 3D is how much you have to bend/alter the models to make it not look like shit. And that takes time/effort/money, more than just plain old CG.
That and Japan likes their CG at low framerates like their 2D for some reason, and that combined with not so good CG just looks terrible.
>>140895900
It's probably an intentional choice, like G-Reco's "rough" linework
The grainy and contrasting colors of cel animation tend to give it a more cinematic feel.
>>140920123
Why would you run CG at low framerates? Doesn't all creating frames require is more rendering time?
>>140920801
I've got no clue, I've seen interviews in the industry with a lot of different explanations for it.
>>140918676
>I'm thinking small-desk-sized
We have those already, they're just absurdly expensive
>>140920992
By "absurdly expansive" how expensive are we talking? And if you're talking about Cintiques, what I had in mind had the better part of the desk as active screen/stylus area. Cintiques don't get that big.
>>140893085is 5cm/s good?
>>140918816
why are bumpers worthless nowadays?
>>140921201
I remember hearing something about a Microsoft monitordesktablet prototype or something a while back. Must have been $4k+, multitouch screen that covered a decent portion.
I think it was this https://news.samsung.com/global/new-from-samsung-interactive-multimedia-desk
>>140921561
Would carpal tunnel be worse with digital or hand drawn?
>>140911526
>weight curb
Why is a heavy car better?
Uses more fuel to accelerate
>>140903359
Yeah those calls in the 80s were so good miles-per-gallon wise.
>>140886245
They use practical effects for lighting.
>>140901891
I don't like how the right one looks 'foggy'.
It fucks with my eyes.
>>140920801
That's the theory, but it only works that way if you rely on tweening 100%.
>>140925539
>'foggy'
What the fuck? I didn't even notice it until you pointed it out. Now it completely fucks up my eyes.
>>140925680
it's been fucking with my eyes for so many years since they started using it
it's everywhere
>>140925719
Jesus Christ, anon. Did you just pass on a curse to me? I hope you didn't. I need to watch my anime tomorrow.
>>140920123
The other problem is environments.
In traditional anime you can just paint a backdrop and move objects on it and it looks fine but with CG you need to model all the objects in the scene with considerable detail.
CG scenes tend to be a bit bare bones-y because of this or when they give up and use 2d backdrops it's really jarring and looks out of place
>>140925759
>>140925719
>>140925539
>>140925680
I'd call it "hazy", but fuck you faggots for pointing it out
>>140925759
it's in all of the anime
>>140925539
>>140925680
>>140925719
>>140925759
>>140925789
>>140925810
The russians discovered this first and use a word that translates to 'soapy'.
It was originally used to describe the PS3 graphics, along with 'no games'.
>>140915034
/fit/ pls
>>140925841
>It was originally used to describe the PS3 graphics, along with 'no games'.
I laughedRomanize it as much as possible for me.
>>140886245
physical colors
>>140925350
based Urushihara
DUDE SHADING LMAO
DUDE 3DCGI IS BAD LMAO
DUDE CELS LMAO
DUDE DIGITAL PAINT LMAO
Any competent creator should be able to use any and all tools to create a great looking product.
Case in point Captain Earth, believe it or nor, actually uses CGI on the mecha at times. And it's especially funny because Bones gets its dick sucked because "they don't do cgi robots"
>>140925887
"mylney" would be the best way, but there's not a good way to romanize it.
I am serious about the 'no games' thing. They declared that 'PS3 has no games' independently and simultaneously of us.
>>140926020
More than tits but yea I didn't webm those parts.
>>140909583
Fuck you. It actually does look better with grain.
>>140909997
>>140910436
>>140910787
>that line control
How the fuck do Japs do it?
>>140926432
By doing it for 14 hours a day for 6 days every week
Fuck it. I'll make more.
Why does 3DCG look so much worse than 2D at the same framerate?
>>140926404
Are you high? It looks like shit in grain.
>>140912499
>>140912553
How long would it take to draw even one page of this? Forget even drawing the next page and having to memorize all the lines that you put into it.
>its an /a/ pulls facts about animation out of there ass episode
>>140926544
I'd love to see Urushihara's work 100% remastered. His attention to detail is admirable (iirc it made the work he was involved in go way over budget) and I think it would look fantastic it at its full potential.
Honestly I think that traditional animation has an advantage just by virtue of film, which adds depth and gives us those delicious grain effects. Obviously post-production effects can replicate it but it doesn't quite feel right yet. I know I'm comparing to the best OVAs in my mind which is unfair but in general cels have a character that was lost completely during the early period of digital and I think is now being regained. I hope that in the future, digital can look less flat - not that it's so noticeable now, but there's room to improve - and directors can better make use of the full extent of digital power.
>>140927108
I was hoping there was a HD remaster I just hadn't found. Maybe one day.
Because it doesn't. Go back to gaia or whereever you came from.
![[HorribleSubs] Space Dandy 2 - 08 [720p].mkv_snapshot_10.25_[2016.05.01_08.12.17].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/cRpf2iY.jpg "[HorribleSubs] Space Dandy 2 - 08 [720p].mkv_snapshot_10.25_[2016.05.01_08.12.17].jpg")
Digital is better.
Even well done 3D still looks off. It just isn't the same.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTxPQKjvFzY
