Okay, so I just finished NGNL's 5th episode, and I just don't get how they were supposed to keep breathing through circular breathing if they removed every single atom of oxygen in the universe. Like they will disappear from their lungs too, so that makes no sense. I'm still having a blast with everything else, I'm just surprised by the enormity of this asspull, especially when they act like they're "SUPAA SOMARUTO ABOT SAAYANSU"
NGNL is full of bullshit, it's only the beginning.
>>140608550
It doesn't affect their person unless specifically stated (like with Jibril's magic circuits) if I recall.
>Jibril game triggered you
>not chess
Casuals these days
>>140608858
It seems you missed the part where the whole point of the chess match was the rules were poorly made and ambiguous. That was exactly what they took advantage of.
>>140608941
No, the first chess match.
Where a girl that had "solved" chess managed to get into trouble.
>>140608965
She started doubting herself and getting confused by the opponent playing intentionally badly. It's a little sketchy to say this would affect her playing ability but not a huge stretch.
>>140609010
>She started doubting herself and getting confused by the opponent playing intentionally badly.
That's not how it works.
She doesn't NEED playing ability when she's solved the game.
>>140608550
Did you miss the part where it was explicitly explained that participants couldn't cause each other's deaths by mentioning vital elements? So, yes, Oxygen in the universe, poof, oxygen in thier lungs and bloodstream would remain, same as with most singular elements they could mention.
I guess you could argue that they should be offlimits due to that rule, though.
>>140609041
The way I understood it was that if she's mostly playing against grandmasters and computer programs she'd have gotten used to a certain set of moves or patterns from them. A B or C move for example from a given point and she's thinking ahead along those paths which moves she should make to win, having solved the game and all. But then Tet would play move K and those 30ish moves ahead she was thinking are useless and she's wondering what the hell is going on and starts slipping up in her moves.
Is this explicitly said? No, but I figure that's what they were going for.
>>140609171
>The way I understood it
Is wrong.
They said she solved the game. Solving a game is a clearly defined thing.
The common example to use for this is tictactoe because it's one of the few games that a normal human can solve.
When you write down all possible tictactoe games and memorize them, then you have solved tictactoe.
From any possible game situation you know exactly the right thing to do. You can't make any mistakes.
To give you a different picture that you may be able to understand better:
Imagine we were racing each other to see who got out of a labyrinth first. But I have google maps and you don't.
In order to confuse me you call a cab for me that drives me closer to the exit. But there is not a single point during the entire challenge where google maps doesn't work.
Do you think you managed to confuse me?
>>140609299
The point of the scene was that while she may be smart she could still be tricked and misled. I didn't say that this is something that necessarily should work, but say in your tic tac toe example I had solved tic tac toe. People I play against will very often play in the center first, and so I think of which move is supposed to come next to ensure my victory after they do that. I also know all the other moves but say that I play 100 people and 90 of them play in the center first and the other 10 play in the top left corner. I do this often enough and I stop thinking about those other moves I would make if they played somewhere else and mostly remember those two.
Then I play some guy who plays his first move in the bottom middle section, and while I'm totally ready to play my second move after the middle or top left I have to stop and think about what the hell was it again that came after the middle bottom? It's a stupid move anyways, why would he play there when until now he was doing so well? Is there something I'm missing? Did I forget or make a mistake earlier? And so on until it snowballs. If I was a computer I might ignore those questions and just play the best move without thinking about why this guy was acting like a moron suddenly, but since I'm not and I'm supposedly very prone to getting rused I start having trouble and making mistakes as I doubt myself.
>>140609078
But the lack of oxygen, weither it is inside or outside their body is going to kill them on the long term. It should be either "all the oxygen disappear because you don't need it" or "all the oxygen remain because the lack of it is going to kill you"
>>140609459
It was more that you can't oneshot someone by saying things inside them that would kill them. You can't say "your heart" either. But summoning an atom bomb was perfectly fine for example. The long term doesn't matter so long as it doesn't kill you right this second.
>>140609455
>The point of the scene was that while she may be smart she could still be tricked and misled.
Playing a solved game has nothing to do with smarts. It's routine.
>but say in your tic tac toe example I had solved tic tac toe.
If two people have solved tic tac toe then they will always draw against each other. There will never be a winner or loser.
>I stop thinking about those other moves
Because they are mistakes. Games like chess and tic tac toe aren't won by good moves, they are won when your opponent makes mistakes.
At the point of having solved the game there are no feints you can do, because the other person doesn't try to figure out what you're planning. He's just going along with everything and bringing the game to a victory conclusion one move at a time. You making a mistake just changes WHICH victory he's moving towards.
>>140609650
Yeah I guess you could always ignore the point of my post too, that's always an option.
>>140609688
You just don't understand what 'solved' means.
>>140609688
You are ignoring what solving the game means. They clearly said that's what she did. They even brought up tic tac toe.
Your entire point is that she didn't really do what they said she did.
But even then it would be stupid because even a real human chess master wouldn't be confused by a mistake. He wouldn't even think about it. He'd just take the queen that you used in your feint and move on.
>>140609712
I understand it just fine, you've been ignoring that even if you've solved it you can still doubt yourself and make your own mistakes when you're thrown into a situation you're not used to.
>>140609455
>If I was a computer
If you have solved the game anon, you are pretty much a computer while playing the game at that point.
There is no 'getting rused' involved any more. All the pieces are out on the field, and there is no such thing as luck.
>>140609750
>a situation you're not used to.
You have memorized every fucking possible situation.
You literally know this situation.
>>140609750
>if you've solved it you can still doubt yourself
You literally cannot. Because there is no situation that you aren't "used" to.
>>140609772
>>140609776
Knowing the theory =/= having the practice and confidence.
Tet's fucking up was meant to throw her off the normal rails she goes down as she played computers and chess masters. I'm not sure why a person making a mistake and fucking up when they're in a situation they're not used to is this hard to get.
>>140609856
>Knowing the theory
>the theory
She knows the fucking game. She's played it before. She played exactly this game before, including your "pretending to be retarded" feint.
>>140609856
Jesus fucking christ this must be trolling at this point.
>>140609856
With chess the theory is literally the same thing as the practise. You do not need any practise to have the physical ability to move a chess piece.
>>140609856
Anon, I'm sorry but what >>140609772 said seems more likely to be true, and it's alright. Maybe it was an asspull, or maybe she was tired and screwed up along the way. But there's no need to get upset, especially since this thread seems to be a nice one
>>140609883
Once maybe, in her own head while she was solving the game and then never again. There's such a thing as falling into a routine and I'm not sure how the concept is escaping you. Even if she knows how it should work on a technical level and she knows that "well if this guy wanted to he could move his knight right into the range of my queen for literally no benefit" she's not going to seriously think about the option very often or at all based on your past performance. Thus once she falls out of routine she feels lost even if she technically knows what moves should come next.
>>140610003
Where have I seemed upset? I'm merely confused that people don't seem to be getting the idea behind the scene, that Shiro even as technically smart as she is isn't perfect and Sora is there to help her with her weak spots.
>>140610012
Your entire point remains:
She hasn't solved the game (because she lost the knowledge).
And that is of course the only sensible answer. Solving the game and getting into trouble during the game are mutually exclusive.
>>140610061
At no point did I say she loses the knowledge, she simply doubts her knowledge as she moves out of her comfort zone.
>>140610081
Then you are still wrong.
>>140610093
That she doubted herself? Because she clearly did.
>>140610060
>that Shiro even as technically smart as she is isn't perfect
Then the show shouldn't have said that she 'solved' chess.
>>140610081
A solved game IS a comfort zone. Moving out of it means you are moving out of it being solved.
>>140610125
You're making assumptions about Shiro here, because she was clearly unnerved despite you thinking it was still her comfort zone.
>>140610145
No, we're saying that the writing is faulty.
>>140610145
>despite you thinking it was still her comfort zone
It's clearly not her comfort zone. Therefore she hasn't solved it.
>>140610183
I don't see how it follows that just because you've solved a game you're suddenly unwaveringly confident as well. Even if I have 100% certainty that something is true I'm liable to have doubts, we're human, we fuck up.
>>140610235
But she would have to be pressured for that.
How do you pressure her when your first mistake already puts her at an advantage?
>>140610235
>I don't see how it follows
Because you don't understand what 'solved' means anon. That's all.
>>140610235
>Even if I have 100% certainty that something is true I'm liable to have doubts
Do you ever doubt that 2+2=4?
>Shiro is unnerved by chess which she comfortablly has done at least hundreds of times
>zero gravity, no oxygen, atom bomb detonating nearby and flawlessly executes breathing circularly with Sora for the first time without breaking a sweat
You've convinced me beyond any reason of a doubt Shiro couldn't have solved chess since it isn't a fixed game which only has a particular set of moves at any given moment. Good work lads, pack it up.
>>140610331
Not pressured so much as confused and causing her to question herself. I've said this a few times now, it's not difficult.
>>140610369
No, but I still get doubts about 9.999999 = 10 every once in a while even if I know it's true.
>>140610235
How are you not understanding this. You know how to win. The other player gives you the win on a platter. Do you suddenly forget how to play the game and not just win?
He gives you the king and you can checkmate and win the game, do you suddenly go what is this? and not just call checkmate?
>>140610404
The main difference between those scenes is that the latter she had Sora with her, you'll notice her confidence in her chess skills didn't waver once he was with her either.
>>140610427
>9.999999 = 10
9.999999 = 9.999999
Are you somewhat retarded anon?
>>140610458
He doesn't understand what solving a game means.
He clearly is
>>140610458
9.9repeating, you know what I mean
>>140610427
>Not pressured so much as confused
Again, no.
It's all part of the "solved".
>Weak solving:
>Provide an algorithm that secures a win for one player, or a draw for either, against any possible moves by the opponent, from the beginning of the game.
It's irrelevant what the other player does. "ANY POSSIBLE MOVES" includes all your nonsense.
Keep in mind this is "weak solving" of the game.
>Strong solving:
>Provide an algorithm that can produce perfect play (moves) from any position, even if mistakes have already been made on one or both sides.
>>140610495
Still not seeing the part where solving the game magically grants you unerring confidence and stops you from fucking up.
>>140610438
>He gives you the king and you can checkmate and win the game, do you suddenly go what is this? and not just call checkmate?
>>140610525
>Still not seeing the part where solving the game magically grants you unerring confidence
That's simple:
Because you know you solved the game and that the other guy is in a worse position than you.
>>140610494
>9.9repeating
See the reason you don't perfectly understand that 9.999... is 10 is because you don't even understand 9.9999.... in the first place. Humans are not equipped to completely understand infinity. But chess has no infinite element. It is conclusive and definite.
>>140608550
I don't think they're geniuses in science. They just like playing games and going to the extremes with the rules.
Hell, the chess game with the guy jumping down and confessing his love to the Queen piece should have tipped you off that this show is fucking ridiculous and it's more about the fun than the realism.s2 when
>>140610557
That hasn't magically changed my personality believe it or not
>>140610572
Be that as it may, it's simply my point that you can have all the logical information point to an answer and still have your misgivings about it.
>>140610612
If you're standing in front of a 15 year old amputee with 1 arm and no legs, and he tries to spit in your face but manages to hit his own face, do you doubt your ability to win a boxing match?
>>140610612
>That hasn't magically changed my personality
It actually has. Your experiences change your personality.
Hard to understand, I know.
>>140610648
A recursive number is not logical anon. Infinity defies all logic. Your point sucks.
>>140610612
Is english your second language? Are you under 12? Are you mentally retarded? I refuse to believe someone over 18 could have this much trouble over this
>>140610648
If your logical information has won you several matches against grandmasters and now this moron is just doing stupid shit instead of playing competently, why would you doubt your own skill?
>>140610659
Clearly the amputee is Accelerator if his spit changed trajectory back at him and I don't know how to reverse my fists at the right time so yes I doubt my ability to beat him now.
>>140610450
Sora was with her in the first chess scene as well. The one they lost. Confidence has nothing to do with it when you are outclassed by a better opponent - as that scene foreshadowed Sora and Shiro doing for the rest of the season. That is literally the theme to the entire anime in the first episode.
>>140610731
Because I know that humans have faults and this is a normal thing. That was the point of the scene, regardless of how much you might argue otherwise.
>>140610740
There are actually disabled people who can't spit further than their own face.
>>140610746
I don't recall this, when did they lose?
>>140610784
Yes, well another point of the scene is that the writers don't know what 'solved' means.
>>140610812
That's more drooling over yourself than hitting yourself in the face with your spit though I'd say.
>>140610839
Point taken.
I was an ass for trying to bring reason to a funny comment anyway.
>>140610838
And we're back to square one where we assume that she can't have solved it because if she had she suddenly would never make mistakes or have doubts ever again.
>>140610881
>she suddenly would never make mistakes or have doubts ever again.
When it comes to chess? Absolutely.
>>140610881
>we're back at square one
>we assume that she can't have solved it
Well we're not at square one if you also understand that she couldn't have solved it.
>>140610905
Rather than cycle through this bullshit yet again I'll just agree to disagree.
>>140610784
Yes people can make mistakes, however because they "solved" it they can still win even with mistakes. How many grand chest masters have lost to someone going hur dur i was pretending to be retarded? 0. Even though they haven't solved chess they understand the rules, being get checkmate. When the retard goes here's my king, the chess master doesn't suddenly doubt himself going 'Do I really win if I checkmate him?'
>>140610932
We don't need to "agree" to disagree. We disagree, simple as that. And the only reason you can't seem to get what we are saying through your thick skull, is because you are an imbecile.
>>140610974
Normally yes the chessmaster wouldn't do that, but Shiro did. And a chessmaster doubting himself isn't irrefutable proof that he must not know what he's doing.
>>140611045
But what reason does she have to doubt herself?
>>140610977
Have you never heard the term before? I thought it quite common.
>>140611074
I'm sure he has. He's saying he doesn't want to part as equals with the other anon because he doesn't respect his opinion.
>>140611070
Fuck if I know but she did and we can't reasonably conclude that it must mean she hasn't solved the game and isn't some personality defect.
>>140611119
>Fuck if I know
There is literally no reason.
She knows that what the other guy did is only to her advantage - provided she actually solved the game..
>>140611104
Agreeing to disagree never implies you respect the other persons opinion though. It simply means you'll drop the subject and tolerate it even when you don't think they're right.
>>140608550
That's not even the real problem.
Reminder that holding your breath in vacuum will result in ruptured lungs (leading to sure death even if pressure is restored) and that you should just exhale (that way you can survive if oxygen is provided before brain dies).
>>140611171
It's about a potentially amicable non-solution to the conflict, which >>140610977 is evidently not looking for, calling >>140610932 an imbecile.
>>140610404
A human being couldn't, but a hypothetical supercomputer could. The number of moves isn't infinite, because if the positions of figures on chessboard repeats three times the game ends with a draw - so you could theoretically "solve" it, just like a tic-tac-toe.
>>140609650
In games like chess any move can be right or wrong depending on the future moves by the other player. You can lead them to desired actions or guess what they'll do by certain extent, but there's still an element of uncertainty, especially if the other player suddenly starts playing like an idiot and throws all your calculations apart. Knowing the outcome of every possible move sure helps a lot, but is still not enough for a 100% sure win against an opponent who can outruse you.
>>140611513
Wrong.
>>140611537
It's right and there's nothing you can do about it.
>>140611556
You have no idea what solved means.
>>140611606
Come back after you read my post.
>>140611642
Come back when you look up "solving chess", because that's what we're discussing here.
This thread bothers me because there is too much autism to even plausibly accomplish anything by saying anything.
>>140611670
Welcome to /a/.
>>140609495
This, that rule exist to prevent instawin
>>140608550
I want S2 of NGNL purely because it'd give me more Jibril.
>>140611661
Then what is that single magical move in chess that wins you a game no matter what the other player does?
>>140611245
yeah because removing oxygen creates a vacuum
learn basic chemistry before trying to be smart, kid
>>140611513
You know going top left means you win. Are you still going to get rused? Cuz that means you're a fucking retard
>>140611751
Presumably Tets moves weren't so far retarded that they would instantly lose him the game, just enough to put him at a disadvantage and cause people to wonder what he's smoking
>>140611742
I haven't watched NGNL in a long time, but if I recall correctly, they removed the atmosphere and then earth so that they were in space, so they should have been in vacuum
>>140611737
Maybe you should read the post you responded to.
>>140609650
>Games like chess and tic tac toe aren't won by good moves, they are won when your opponent makes mistakes.
Playing a solved game is playing the game backwards. You take a particular victory scenario that fits the current situation and then move the pieces towards that end.
You cannot improve your own position with your own moves, because you already are in the position to take that victory position. But if your opponent makes a mistake then you change the chosen victory position and lead him down another path to a different victory scenario for you. It'll be faster because he worsened his position with his mistake.
Didn't I ask you to look up what "solving chess" means?
>>140611742
It was a long time ago, but I remember them flying, I thought through space. Were they in reality flying low above the Earth? My bad then.
>>140611800
If I recall they removed oxygen first, and then later said atmosphere so that the rest of the atmosphere dissipated but the oxygen came back, they were at no point in a full vacuum I think. Maybe right at the end when they started writing.
>>140611779
>just enough to put him at a disadvantage
Same thing, just slower.
>>140611779
In a solved game one mistake means that you have lost.
>>140611737
The thing is that Chess could still plausibly be solvable because it has a fixed (but extremely large) number of possibilities but we haven't figured it out yet. So the idea that Shiro has solved chess is a fucking ridiculous claim but not completely impossible.
I honestly don't remember the episode that well but presumably the drama comes from whether the claim is actually true or whether they just think so because IT JUST WERKS, since being lazy neet autists I doubt they ever bothered to prove it. Completely fucking nonsensical looking moves are a bluff that the opponent knows some ridiculous batshit strategy that was overlooked and isn't actually solved.
Anyways it's all chuuni shit so I don't know why anyone is expecting it to actually make sense.
>>140611861
>>140611874
Then I guess Shiro is in fact a retard. It would fit with her portrayal in the show at least.
>>140611737
Not him, but read about it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solving_chess
>>140611825
>you change the chosen victory position and lead him down another path to a different victory scenario for you
Then you suddenly realize that your opponent has rused you into scenario where you have no winning moves
>>140608550
lurk more and watch more anime
>>140611908
If that is possible, you didn't solve the game.
>>140611908
That means that, 1. you haven'y solved it and 2. you're fucking retarded for falling for a ruse where you have a large window of opportunity to simply win and end the game
>>140611927
You did, but you couldn't predict what will the other player do. All the moves are still clear as day to you, it's just they all lead to your loss.
>>140612021
>You did
Redefine things all you want. The rest of us will use the common definitions.
>>140608550
>Not expecting bullshit from a BR
>>140612014
>you're fucking retarded for falling for a ruse where you have a large window of opportunity to simply win and end the game
Say that to picrelated >>140608550
>>140612039
>Redefine things all you want
Says the guy who believes solving a chess game magically grants you a win no matter what.
>>140612131
You have no idea what you are talking about.
>"strong" proofs often proceed by brute force—using a computer to exhaustively search a game tree to figure out what would happen if perfect play were realized. The resulting proof gives an optimal strategy for every possible position on the board.
I'll repeat the last part because it seems vaguely relevant to your point:
>every possible position on the board
>these proofs are not as helpful in understanding deeper reasons
It is not about tactics. It's just about following the perfect guide. You cannot fall to a ruse because you are not actually playing the game. You don't question the other player's motives, you just respond perfectly.
>>140612064
It's bad writing, just like every other LN? What do you want me to say?
The author does not know what solving a game entails.
The 'o shit I got rused even though I solved chess' is retarded.
The autist in this thread who fails to understand despite many simple examples a child would understand, is mentally handicapped
>>140612166
Even if you have solved a game you don't have a 100% control over it. Your "perfect" response is only perfect under the assumption that the other player does A, B and C next (he'll sure do it, he's not an idiot, right?). He does A, B and suddenly D and your perfect response isn't all that perfect anymore. Then >>140611908
>>140612336
>our "perfect" response is only perfect under the assumption that the other player does A, B and C
Seriously, learn to read.
>to exhaustively search a game tree to figure out what would happen if perfect play were realized
>(he'll sure do it, he's not an idiot, right?)
No, what you are referring to is perfect play by both players, but if you actually read up on this, that's not what solving a game is about.
Just shut up or use google. Holy shit.
Sora says she is used to playing against computers and masters, who always will do the best moves, when it doesn't happen she gets confused, bluffs and shit is sora' specialty not shiro's
>>140612336
No. It's perfect because whatever tour opponent does you won't lose. (If he also only makes perfect moves the game will end in draw, if he makes a mistake you will win)
>>140612191
There's at least two of us, one who refuses to believe that solving the game means you know all the possible positions on the board and what comes next and one who refuses to believe that knowing all the positions means you will always confidently make the correct move
>>140612433
>who always will do the best moves,
But they won't.
Everybody who hasn't solved the game makes mistakes. Perfect play can only be guaranteed by perfect knowledge.
The fact that it even comes up is further proof that the author doesn't know what game solving entails.
>bluffs and shit is sora' specialty
That was just more nonsense. How is he supposed to recognize a bluff if he doesn't even understand what's going on in general?
>>140612131
You are right. Solving it does NOT mean you win no matter what. You can always lose on purpose. However if you want to win, you already know how to win, therefore when they fuck up, you simply have less moves to make before winning. Despite all the other analogies you fail to grasp this so here's one a NEET might understand.
You are playing a game you want to win because there's a prize. You have a cheat code that shows you what to do to win. The other player is simply a good player. Suddenly the other player starts acting retarded and the cheat code shows less and less moves needed for you to win. If you have 'solved' the game you simply win and say the opponent was a retard, pretending or otherwise. If you lose despite wanting to win, you have not solved the game as there was a possible scenario of you losing which you did not know of.
>>140612494
That was sora's words
>>140612447
>If he also only makes perfect moves the game will end in draw,
So long as the game isn't biased.
>>140612412
>perfect play
No such thing unless you can 100% accurate predict what your opponent will do
>>140612713
Seriously, look things up.
>In game theory, perfect play is the behavior or strategy of a player that leads to the best possible outcome for that player regardless of the response by the opponent.
>>140612713
Technically you are, you're predicting he will do any of the moves available to him. He can do moves A-Z and you know what move to use to respond to all of those moves, and no there is no secret move unless he starts cheating. You can only move your pieces in a set manner after all.
>>140612713
THAT'S WHAT SOLVING THE GAME MEANS YOU FUCKING DUMB CUNT. YOU KNOW 100% OF ALL MOVES, RETARDED OR OTHERWISE.
>>140611702
And yet the very first word he could have picked could have been the one he used last, causing instawin.
>>140612776
If you let the shitposter make you angry you lose, /a/non. Don't let him win.
>>140611888
>>140612892
OP started another hate thread. That's all. The best measure of a show is when it is actively airing and more of the real audience participates in threads. After a show is over, their 4chan threads are in almost all cases dominated by haters and ignored by those who liked the show. Thus, 4chan /a/ got an unfair reputation of being full of anime haters when that is not the actual case.
What /a/ suffers from is a lot of people full of pent up rage from their daily lives. They come here to vent their anger and frustrations on whatever convenient targets exist. If there aren't any, they start a hate thread. Then there are the others who simply enjoy seeing others squirm in anger. Those shadenfreude types are the real cancer. They didn't start a thread or participated in it for "therapy" but instead have genuinely cruel natures. They inject their hate carefully. Many of us know such types of people in real life and avoid them. Those people of course are angry about that and like places like 4chan where they aren't banned. On other forums that encourage community and cooperativeness, such people naturally are get banned after being recognized by mods for what they are - cancer.
>>140612892
He's actually not making me angry, I just hope caps lock would convey something since he seems incapable of reading reason. That said, I am constantly angry, like 60% of the time because people just in general fuck me off just for existing
>>140613014
Schadenfreude is a German word. Germans don't go for "sh" nonsense.
>>140612775
>He can do moves A-Z and you know what move to use to respond to all of those moves, and no there is no secret move unless he starts cheating.
For any move you have many responses that could end in your win. You have to chose 1 best for what you think your opponent will do next, and there's none with no further losing moves for you. This is where you fuck up.
>>140613153
That is, until you have solved the game.
>>140613153
So I take it then that your argument is that I cannot make a move without knowing what the opponent's move is. That move A would be best against moves A-S but if my opponent were to do moves T-Z move B would be better?
>>140613014
Good shows with small fanbases rarely get threads, why? because they already know what made it good, there's no reason to talk about it more, unless another season is coming up. Popular shows that even normies watch, such as NGNL get lots of threads because newfags watch it then start a shitty thread. I'm a schadenfreude type but I've been trying to educate some idiot on the internet and it was enjoyable.
>>140613253
Yep. Natsume for example has trouble maintaining a thread even when a season is airing. It has a dedicated fanbase though.
>normies
>>140612828
That needed some setup. And even if not, wouldn't be fun for a player like him.
>>140613153
If you have solved it, you know how to win from move 1, therefore you can not fuck up. And since they had already progressed in the match before acting retarded, there should have been no way to lose.
In other words, bad writing and you still don't understand what solving a game means
>>140612021
>You did, but you couldn't predict what will the other player do. All the moves are still clear as day to you, it's just they all lead to your loss.
Not for Shiro in that chess game against Jibril. Shiro considered options within TET's Rules for game playing. So, was Shiro supposed to get out of check before she can go for the other king?
It was a great game within the competitive rules of Tet's World AND the context of how Jibril was well-treated by Blank and still had access to the library and spoils as if she had won. This is key as to why she willingly worked to help [Blank] instead of doing the bare minimum as a surly slave.
As for games in TET's world, you _must_ be caught cheating to be declared a cheater. That is why cheating is possible and occurs in games. Jibril refused to call Shiro a cheater. Therefore, that move can remain on the board.
Jibril moves and announced diagonal "Check" of the King on the 2nd row. Shiro then moves the king to the back row. Jibril then moved her queen to the back row to attack the King but did not announce "Check". Jibril made her queen vulnerable with the expectation Shiro would not do "Kn x Q!!" which would be devastating. Shiro now retorts Sora is real and that Blank does not lose which is an indirect request to Jibril. Shiro moved her knight to put Jibril's King in check while ignoring her King under check.
Loyal Jibril does NOT claim a rules violation for this move NOR does she claim that earlier check on Shiro's king. Breaking rules is cheating, but you lose ONLY if you are caught, and Jibril clearly refuses to catch Shiro. Very nice use of TET's rules. This character development moment for Jibril proves the value of not demeaning Jibril as a slave property. As a result, Jibril willingly exercises free will to the benefit of Shiro (and Sora).
I'm pleased to see writing where the writer and the director gambled on the intelligence of the japanese audience to pick up on these things.
>>140613558
We're talking about the first game in episode 1 on the computer though.
Holy fuck. All this shit about chess. I thought for sure someone would bring the rock paper scissors up sometime due to how fucking retarded that was, but nope it's all chess.
>>140613733
RPS made sense just fine, there were just lots of people who didn't listen when it was explained.
>>140608550
>>140608790
>NGNL is full of bullshit, it's only the beginning.
More like it is full of homages and fun references to other stories and games. Items below from http://forums.bakabt.me/index.php?topic=39226
The game references at the end of each episode:
EP01: Final Fantasy (Zidane Tribal says it)
EP02: El Shaddai http://youtu.be/PAIfIFV9A4E?t=1m3s
EP03: Takeshi's Challenge
EP04: Dragon Quest 1 (it's the quote when you stay at the inn)
EP05: Dragon Quest, http://youtube.com/watch?v=-ZOPlZTAPDs
EP06: NPC response in Skyrim
EP07: Civilization IV
EP08: ICO
EP09: Bahamut Lagoon (SNES RPG) http://dic {d0T} nicovideo {d0T} jp/a/サラマンダーより、ずっとはやい!!
EP10: Final Fantasy Tactics (Agrias Oaks http://preview {d0T} alturl {d0T} com/rh2ew)
EP11: Final Fantasy 4 (said by two chars in battle vs Zemus)
EP12: "Let the games begin" is an idiom and refers to no specific game
Anime or game homages in the body of the anime:
EP01: JoJo(Sora while falling)
EP02: Jojo(Wrrrry), Doraemon(bath scene),pulled Elfen Lied bloody ad(bloody Steph)
EP03: Ace Attorney, JoJo, Professor Layton(carriage driver)
EP04: Ace Attorney
EP05: Laputa:Castle in the Sky, 2ch(shiro talking about servers)
EP06: ? ? ?
EP07: Nausicaa, Zetsubou-Sensai, Mirai Nikki, Doraemon, Neon Genesis Evangelion
EP08: JoJo(King Crimson), Hyouka(Jibril), Detective Conan(Shiro), Yu-Gi-Oh(Shiro)
EP09: ? ? ?
EP10: Professor Layton(carriage driver)
EP11: Legend of the Galactic Heroes(ships firing), Persona 4, Stein's Gate, Akiba's
Trip, Gal Gun, Fate/StayNight(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs7KXX_pwzw#t=7m21s)
EP12: ? ? ?
>>140613601
It's been stated that Shiro can solve any program, but she struggles with understanding another person. If they make a move that confuses her, she thinks she's being tricked, and she feels uneasy until she understands the trick. That's why she has Sora. He can see the tricks and point them out to her so that she can then make the best move. That's how the two of them work. Shiro has perfect mechanics, but doesn't always know how to use them, while Sora can see the best course of action and directs Shiro so that's it executed perfectly.
>>140614476
>she struggles with understanding another person.
You don't need to understand another person to follow a guide.
>If they make a move that confuses her,
Why should she be confused and not just take advantage of your stupid move?
>He can see the tricks
How?
>>140614553
>Why not take advantage
She probably believes that the opportunity is too good to be true.
>How
Sora's basically a con man. It's why he does the negotiating before the game. He relies on tricks to throw off his opponent rather then playing perfectly. Because of how good he is at this, he can understand if another person is trying to do it. It's also why he has an even win-loss record against Shiro. He does moves that throw her off half the time and allow him to get a win.
>>140609299
Pretend you have to memorize the labyrinth. You start at point A and take off at a run. You get halfway through and find someone has cut a channel through the entire labyrinth, leaving you with 20-30 paths instead of the 2 you expected.
Alternatively you ended up "getting a head start" and starting in the middle. Your memorized turn by turn isn't that useful any more.
Computers have solved chess. We still win against casual computers because they are either trained to make mistakes or are severely limited in their thinking time. The human brain is stuck in the latter limitation, even with a complete knowledge of chess..
>>140609856
You do know that "alternative openings" exist solely to go down unknown paths in the solved game right?
Fried liver or halloween are weaker openings, but if you are against a classically trained opponent, you will drag them out of their comfort zone.
>>140614874
>She probably believes that the opportunity is too good to be true.
Why would she?
She knows the entire game. She can literally predict what the other guy can do from a particular position.
>He does moves that throw her off half the time and allow him to get a win.
Which relies again on a non-solved chess on her part.
Also, no matter how good at puns you are, you can't identify in a language you don't speak.
How can he figure out feints on a game-level beyond his own?
>>140615326
>Computers have solved chess.
No, they have not.
>casual computers
Do you have any idea how large the database for the solved chess would be?
Forget exa byte. That shit has 120 digits.
>You get halfway through and find someone has cut a channel through the entire labyrinth, leaving you with 20-30 paths instead of the 2 you expected.
I have no idea what you are trying to say. Is your chess opponent cheating and moving the chess pieces into positions that would not normally be possible?
>>140615390
You know that no chess player has actually solved chess, right?
>>140615470
>She can literally predict what the other guy can do from a particular position.
When someone makes a simingly stupid move on purpose instead of playing her perfect game, she gets unsure.
>>140615590
>>140615632
Technically correct, computers haven't solved chess. On a practical level however, they will win any game presented that does not limit their computing time or exploit a bug.
I'm saying that putting an opponent on tilt can occur from even positive situations like finding a shortcut; Giving up a piece "by accident" in high level play has a good chance of baffling your opponent, and any thinking they do that isn't about the game is an advantage, and likely pays off better than a knight.
>>140615817
To a perfect player, everything that isn't a perfect move is a stupid move.
It doesn't matter how stupid it is. It's a mistake that increases her advantage.
Man just shut the fuck up and watch and enjoy this show is very bullshitty but its awesome as fuck
>>140615858
She is insecure about that stuff, it's her weakness, that's all there is to that.
>>140615847
>On a practical level however, they will win any game
Irrelevant because we are not discussing skill. We are discussing a solved game.
That is your problem. You don't understand that these two things are completely different. Skill requires theory, planning, perception into the other guy's plans and tactics.
Playing a solved game requires only the data base.
>>140615920
Which makes no sense.
That's all there is to that.
>>140616089
If she had no weakness you would complain about her being a total machine instead, wouldn't you?
>>140616165
*If she had no weakness in chess
Ftfy.
Then I'd accept that as her unrealistic skill in an unrealistic setting.
If she solves every problem with impeccable ability then the story gets boring. But if it's just chess, and chess without cheating or special rules, in a world like NGNL, then that's not really overpowered.
>>140615942
You can still lose in a solved game with a complete database if your processing power is limited. This is how simple games for children are programmed to lose. As a matter of fact, there was a situation with one of the space quest games that made the game impossible in a modern system because it was programmed to give a specific amount of cycles to a specific strength of processor to give it a reasonable skill level.
A computer can win a solved game every time with (practically) unlimited processing time and a complete database.
A human can still lose, because the human does not have unlimited processing time, nor technically does it have a perfect database.
If presented in the context of an amateur or weak program, she would easily capitalize and destroy the opponent.
In this context however, one has to wonder what the hell is going on. Again, like non standard openings: When you and your opponent opens 4 knights and you take their center pawn, a normal player will think you've gone completely mad. Even a person with complete chess knowledge needs to completely rethink their direction of play.
Some players lack the mental resilience to do this.
>>140616403
>A human can still lose, because the human does not have unlimited processing time,
Nor does a human brain have the capacity to store the database.
But I accept this post as your admission of defeat: If she doesn't have the brain capacity to make use of her database, then she doesn't effectively have it.
>>140616240
Her problem is her mindset. She assumes her opponent is going to play perfectly. So they don't and make a stupid move, she's thinking "there's no way they'd make that move on accident" instead of thinking "how can I take advantage of that mistake." She has to have the answers beforehand in order to feel comfortable making a move. Takestarcraftfor example. A grandmaster can be beaten by a really stupid move if they don't see it coming. This move can be easily countered, but only if they're ready for it.
>>140616614
>She assumes her opponent is going to play perfectly.
She's played multiple opponents so far and not one of them played perfectly. Did that make her lose every time?
>>140616680
Perfectly in the bounds of their ability. Not when the move looks too much like a trick.
>>140616520
>Defeat
I know we're talking about NGNL, but it's a title, not a suggestion.
>>140616614
That kind of behavior is part of the reason that Achron (rest it's soul) had such a demanding competitive scene.
>>140616680
Making a blunder is not the same as making a dumb move.
Missing a putt in golf means my opponent leaves the hole -1. Driving with my sand wedge ruins his game because he is some combination of disturbed, upset, angry and homicidal.
>>140616797
Which wouldn't make much of a difference to her, because if she's playing with the database of her solved chess she has no reason to judge the quality of the other person's playing beyond whether or not it's perfect or not (perfection leading down a straight path towards one particular end, which means she doesn't have to think about what to do next).
>>140616850
>Missing a putt in golf means my opponent leaves the hole -1. Driving with my sand wedge ruins his game because he is some combination of disturbed, upset, angry and homicidal.
And now in digital chess terms?
>>140617020
The Halloween Gambit opening.
"Ruining" a four knights opening by trading your knight for the center pawn.
>>140617182
So nothing that a perfect player would be concerned about, since it's just moves.
>>140617234
That's right. The perfect player would never care about something as inconsequential as chess.
>>140617393
I already told you:
A perfect player is not actually playing chess.
He's just executing what the guideline tells him is the right thing to do.
He's probably bored out of his mind because there is no initiative or creativity on his part.
He may not even understand what he's doing if he's got the database but no understanding of the rules of chess.
He doesn't fucking CARE what the other guy does.
>>140617463
The Chinese room? Really?
We're still talking about a human being right?
Yes. The "perfect player" is a guy in a box with a huge fucking manual, a single line text display and a keyboard. Input E4, Output E5, return to page 0 when Input = "Concede".
But the premise is a human being with a complete knowledge of chess. Your position is like assuming all humans are P-Zombies because they run on a deterministic process.
It's an easy to defend position, but functionally useless since the important aspect is the distinction.
You know the real crime of NGNL? They didn't put in nipples. Especially with multiple times characters are stripped nude or bath scenes.
Shameful dispray.
>>140617950
>But the premise is a human being with a complete knowledge of chess.
The premise is a girl who solved chess. That either is a red herring or means that she is a perfect player.
>We're still talking about a human being right?
Would I mention boredom otherwise?
Literally autism, the thread.
>>140618862
Just rewatched the episode. Shiro's problem is that she mainly plays against an a.i. Tet made a move to bait her in, and that confused her, since an a.i. would never make that kind of move. He probably was looking catch her knight out position and attack from a different angle, but that would require a sacrifice that seems illogical, and Shiro's problem is that she thinks in a completely logical sense, so a sudden illogical move throws her off and if you start to second guess yourself, you're more prone to making mistakes.
>>140620130
Yes, that makes sense for somebody who hasn't solved chess.
A computer withe the database would go make move A > opponent makes move D > makes move E > O-B > C...
A human with the database in principle should go the same way, but humans have other programs in execution, like emotions which can interfere with the chess solving program, that's what happens with shiro, she should be following the instructions, but tet's actions affect her emotion program which affects her chess program
>>140619135
>Literally autism, the thread.
It just like those SAO threads where the SAO fans ignored all logical reasons simply to repeat their autisms over and over again. The same thing is happening here with the anti-NGNL posts ignoring previous explanations and repeating themselves over and over and over. They "win" by simply outlasting everyone else and that similar thing made SAO fanboys into one of the hated groups.
>>140620506
You say I'm anti-NGNL just because I find one part to be badly written?
>>140620189
Think of it this way; Sora says that Shiro has beaten the a.i. alternating between going 1st and 2nd. This means that there should be a used to always win, regardless of whether you go 1st or not. That same principle applies to Ted's side as well. As long as you can make the right moves, you should always be able to win. If there's a way for both sides to win, it also means there a way for both sides to lose, so Shiro isn't guaranteed the win from the start.
>>140620869
>Shiro isn't guaranteed the win from the start.
Of course.
Perfect play doesn't turn a draw position into a victory or a defeat into a draw. It just maintains the potential quality off your side. You win because the other player is imperfect and worsens his position or because the game is biased.
That also means that she is used to other players playing imperfectly ("illogically").
It doesn't matter to her what kind of mistake they make because she doesn't need to try to figure things out. When you have solved chess you just select the appropriate final position and move the game toward that.
>>140621035
Even if she had the database, does she have the computing power to check all of it in time to make her next move? Isn't it like fucking big?
>>140621149
>Isn't it like fucking big?
It's so unrealistically big that it's plain silly to think a human might have it memorized.
You are going to accept that she has it but not that she can use it?
By the way, I assume that the use would be much easier than the storage, since you only need a tiny fraction of it at a time. But this is just me rambling, I don't know very much about this sort of thing.
>>140621035
How you get to that end results is also determined by what your opponent does. Shiro was working toward one result, but Tet made moves that would require Shiro to start working toward a different result, which requires quick flexibility. Even if she has the guide to win, it's a massive guide to be remembering, so sometimes there are things you overlook.
>>140621258
Is it so big? Human brain can store like whole youtube... And Unless it's indexed I think search through it would need a great computing power leading to >>140621403
>>140621541
From wikipedia:
>it would either need to compare some 10^120 possible game variations, or have a "dictionary" denoting an optimal move for each of the about 10^43 possible board positions.
>>140621684
How many information it is using plain text in computer units?
And reading that wikipedia link... Even though our brain has the processing power of 2 supercomputers, I don't think she solved it
>>140621911
Maybe the best answer to the problem is that she never actually solved chess, but told her brother that she did to impress him.
>>140621911
that's 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 possible board positions.
If each positin took the space of 1 bit that would require 1.25e30 TBs of space
What the hell is being discussed here? Has it never happened to you that you fuck up something you've done thousands of times?
I've failed silly grammar questions in English exams (ESL here) precisely because they were too dumb to be true. And grammar is just pointing out the error without any thought, because you've practiced the correct way for years.
This is fairly common with high level ESL, why would it not happen with chess?
>>140622131
>What the hell is being discussed here?
Serious business.
>>140622066
She definitely didn't solved that
I think saying she is confused by humans and making her able to just calculate what human will do (like the game against steph and against izuna) was another contradiction
Enough about chess. Somebody explain rock paper scissors. Why was MC's move considered valid when he blatantly broke the arbitrary rules he set up the game to begin with?
>>140622291
Because Steph is too gullible. She could have called him out but she's a little too airheaded for that.
>>140608550
That's where I dropped it too, anon.
>>140622291
He only said he would play paper. He never established it as a rule. The way his rules were set allowed him to use scissors and rock, but the only way to get a complete victory was through paper.
>>140622131
Solved Chess is a state, you cannot fuck it up by definition. Perfect play means you make the absolute best move every time. You don't make mistakes, because you're moving according to a set of directions - If A Do B. There is no possible way she could have made a ''mistake''. This isn't something practiced, it's like saying a computer suddenly spat out 1+1 = 2, 1+2 = 3, 1+1+1 = 5.
>>140622291
He claimed to be using paper, but he never said it was part of the game system.
>>140612828
No he couldn't, because deleting coulomb's law does a lot more than cause a big crunch and wouldn't actually do that to begin with.
>>140613153
A solved game like Chess, where victory is possible for both sides, means that you know how to get into the best possible position with each move, no matter what.
Since the start is equal, this means that you're always either exactly as strong as your opponent, or stronger. No matter how he ruses you, you know how to win from this exact position given perfect play before he tried to ruse you.
>>140625242
Look out, we have amateur physicist here. Better not shitpost any e=mc2 jokes now.
>>140616614
Dude, once you have failed to make a perfect move, you've already lost the game against a perfect player. Shiro should've been fucking ecstatic because she won at that very moment, not insecure. It's like seeing someone say 'Japan is in Africa' during a geography game show. No, you won't start doubting if Tokyo is actually the capital of Egypt or Somalia.
>>140625743
I don't need advanced physics knowledge to know that getting rid of Coulomb's law should've caused all sorts of shit.
>>140625845
Like time suddenly traveling backwards and all the stars in the universe going nova?
>>140625908
I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not, but no, it really shouldn't have.
>>140625845
>>140625908
Keep in mind that their game only applied to Earth. When the explosion happened you could still see the other planets still sitting there just fine.
We also know this because THEY didn't explode from a loss of the Coulomb force (which would have created a tie)
>>140626156
Can you? I was under the impression space collapsed or some shit because that's what it looked like, unless it was supposed to represent the Earth going full Black Hole on their asses.
Speaking of which, wouldn't the pair have still died earlier? I'd expect Jibril who nosell'd an H-bomb to have much higher tolerance to G-forces than them.
Also fuck their bullshit with a hypernova, that's not what a hypernova is.
>>140625795
In chess, people also make moves because they anticipate their opponent's next move. Since Shiro mainly plays against an a.i., she can predict what the next 5+ moves are gonna be. However, when you play a person, you can't always predict what the next move is. Shiro was looking down the road while Tet threw something in front of her to trip her up at her feet, and when you look too far ahead, it's easy to miss something right in front of you.
>>140626156
Already mentioned ITT, but anything you play doesn't directly apply to the players.
>see NGNL thread with over 200 posts
>expect massive amounts of shitposting
>instead get chess discussion
Well that was different.
>>140626578
>she can predict
She doesn't need to.
Perfect play doesn't require you to do that.
>>140626629
It's not really a chess discussion.
>>140626578
That's not how perfect play works though.
In Tic-Tac-Toe, for example, no matter what move you make, no matter when you make that move, I can always achieve at least a draw, assuming you didn't cheat. I know exactly what to play to achieve at least a draw, no matter what move you make, no matter when you make it.
That is what perfect play means for fundamentally equal-ground games.
You're talking about what it means to 'play' chess. To play chess perfectly is more like having a computer routine as an opponent, where the fact 'you didn't win' is already set in stone by a divine being - what remains is how much of a fight you put up and how, exactly, you lost.
>>140626620
they were allowed to remove her Spirit Circuits
>>140626797
It can't bring harm directly to the players or something, I guess ripping those things off doesn't actually harm the person beyond disabling their skill bar.
>>140626797
I meant things that outright kill the players. They also removed nipples and pussies.
>>140626701
In that sense, yes a perfect player would take the game one move at a time. However, Shiro doesn't think like that and instead looks much farther ahead. She thinks about what she is doing instead what her opponent is doing, so when someone causes her to make adjustments, she staggers.
>>140616614
That's wrong dude. She's basically looking at a flowchart for victory, there's literally no reason to doubt anything.
>>140627057
>In that sense, yes a perfect player would take the game one move at a time. However, Shiro doesn't think like that and instead looks much farther ahead.
In a sense, a perfect player looks at the entirety of the remaining game. He sees the final move, and what moves are required to move the game there.
So in that sense, by planning ahead Shiro is not playing perfectly and without a solved chess at her disposal.
>>140627057
But then that's neither perfect play nor logically sounds (since Shiro is supposed to be a logical person)
Perfect play is step-by-step, infallible by definition when faced with a fundamentally symmetrical game. Looking ahead is a tactic used by people who can't use perfect play, because perfect play, in a sense, has already seen all possible paths, to all possible ends, and simply chooses a path to move down based on the opponent's last move. The opponent's moves literally do not matter. If Tet moves differently, Shiro changes her victory condition with no loose ends. She makes no assumptions, she simply narrows the tree. Every move Tet makes must, by definition, bring him closer to the end of the tree and his own loss.
If she's playing in a non-perfect fashion, she's being illogical and retarded, and that's not supposed to be her character.
>>140620739
>I don't understand it so it's bad
>>140620506
Are you talking about perfect play?
There's no room for discussion there, because it's by definition wrong, or contradicts her character.
This isn't even on the level of SM threads sperging out over how stupid Muv Luv tactics are, this is9pi as if someone claimed that 5^2 != 20 or that e^(i(pi)) = 69.
Perfect play in Chess looks like this, you either win or you tie.
>>140620506
>no discussion allowed on my anime discussion board
>>140608550
Thats what makes it soooo awesome
>>140608550
Who cares, Jibril is best girl everyone else can take a hike
>>140627746
>5^2 != 20
Well alright, this probably wasn't clear re-reading it
I meant to say that there's nothing to discuss, because it's blatantly obvious, and the second example has nothing to discuss, because it's wrong.
Probably would've made more sense if I wrote != 25 instead.
>>140627746
Literally the only point being made is "Yes Shiro shouldn't have doubted herself" "No her doubting herself doesn't mean her claim is false"
It *is* highly illogical and dumb for her to doubt herself if she knows how to win or tie no matter the board position, but we're talking about a person who if she isn't with her brother is literally completely non functional and seriously considers committing suicide if he rolls off the bed in the morning and she can't see him. She clearly can't always pick the right answer even knowing what it is.
>>140628404
That's completely contradictory to her character without the 'deprived of Oniichan' angle, which wasn't relevant at the time.
When Oniichan is nearby she's basically an autistic moe supercomputer who does everything via pure logic. It's either poor writing / a hole in her characterization, or it's wrong.
Also, you'll see that there are people who have no clue what PP means in the thread, so I wasn't sure which you were.
>>140608550
>dont pay attention when the rules are explained
>"wow this doesnt make sense and im smart for noticing"
kill yourself fambo
>>140628556
>which you were
I just woke up, I was one of the guys from 6 hours ago.
I'm simply saying the difference between when she was fucking up and when she wasn't was when "Blank" worked together vs when she was alone. Maybe it was poor writing, I wouldn't put it past the author when this was maybe a page long in the book and was clearly supposed to be more about laying out the character's strengths than the actual game itself, especially since we didn't see what changed when Sora joined her, and since she solved the game it was likely literally nothing but "Ignore that move it's a bluff and has no deeper meaning, you can still just move to your victory condition" over and over.
>>140626797
Jibril said they can't interfere directly causing the death (which according to their rules meant winning).
>>140626369
The earth just exploded we saw that while the camera was taking distance from the earth
Their logic was something like remove coulomb force > protons no more repels themselves > strong nuclear force fuse them > energy is liberated in the process > explosion
Can someone with good physics check if this is right?
>>140629226
That has nothing to do with a hypernova though.
>>140629431
He should be comparing, isn't a hypernova one kind of super strong star exlplosion? One of the proposed models starts with gravitational collapse with extra energy blowing up external layers, which fall back into the star creating relativistic jets. Sora used strong force in the place of gravity because earth doesn't have enough mass. From what I've read I think the explosion would be only supernova lever tho
>>140630167
No, he's literally just making a massive fusion bomb, it's shit-tier compared to an actual supernova. A hypernova refers to an EXTREMELY huge star which also happens to be spinning exceptionally quickly which actually turns into a black hole from the inside out and becomes an accretion disk by spinning itself flat.
>>140630264
I agree it wouldn't reach supernova strength but the mechanism is similar, author wanted to be cool
>>140630575
What I'm saying is that a hypernova is a completely different phenomenon.
>caring about the plot of NGNL
>not just enjoying Jibril, the loli, and the dog
>>140631630
Jibril is the only relevant one.
>>140631867
Shiro is pretty relevant for my dick.
>>140630667
And that's why I said the mechanism is similar to a supernova , attractive force cause collapse extra energy creates explosion, in the hypernova we have the disc as a differential and extra source of energy; the difference was the attractive force and strength
>>140631927
Jibril is a better girl all around, Shiro has nothing over her besides being loli and I have a thing for Oneechans too so it's not even a minus
>>140632021
Yeah but he said it was similar to a hypernova unless horriblesubs fucked up again.
>>140632024
She's also a sadist and has as much or more devotion than Jibril to Sora.
>>140632155
I don't care though, Jibril's personality isn't literally autistic.
>>140632024
>>140632213
Not a fan of this type of vore.
>>140632147
He really said, as I said before author wanted to be cool and make jibril even more durable
>>140632201
Suit yourself, Shiro's still the better girl
