I just thought of a problem with Fate:
So Rin summons EMIYA because she has the pendant which becomes an "artifact" for EMIYA in the future, the summoning is only possible because heroic spirits exist out of time. Heroic spirits also exist across every universe evidently, due to the fact that the Shirou in all 3 routes never becomes EMIYA yet EMIYA is summonable in them.
Given this, couldn't ANYTHING be an artifact for a heroic spirit because there's infinite universes and therefore infinite possibilites? Like monkeys typing out Shakespeare eventually?
Like, if a magus were to steal a middle schooler's panties, they would be able to summon a heroic spirit, because there'd be at least one universe that middle schooler becomes a heroic spirit and those panties become and artifact.
This would work with anything:
>Hobo's pocket knife
>Dog's collar
>Mom's vibrator
>7/11 sign
>Park Bench
>Any bottle of Coke™ ZERO ever
>Any DVD copy of Click starring Adam Sandler
Like couldn't you use your own favorite pair of jeans as an artifact because there's an infinite amount of universes where you're a Saber clone who has them enchanted and wears them into battle?
Do you guys get my logic? Am I wrong?
>>140520968
Infinite is not synonymous with "anything". For example, there are an infinite amount of numbers between 3 and 4 and yet none of them are the number 5.
>>140521103
But isn't everything bound to happen an infinite number of times because there's an infinite number of universes?
Well, compared to that middle schooler whose panties you steal, Shirou becomes a heroic spirit or comes very close to it in way more universes. If you take a thousand out of those infinite possibilities, probably none of them will have the middle schooler becoming a hero, while quite a lot will produce Emiya.
So, I see no problem in believing that the pendant has enough power to summon a spirit owning it while the panties would not be able to grasp at that straw.
>>140520968
Nasu is a shit writer, more news at 11.
>>140521200
No. Only things that can happen will happen. Within a fictional universe what can happen is up to the writer.
Not everything is or needs to be high sci-fi.
>>140521423
Fictional or not, it doesn't matter.
If there's an infinite amount of universes, that means there's an infinite amount of universes where you're a doctor or lawyer instead of a basement dweller.
Same with being a heroic spirit.
>>140521486
No, there could be an infinite number of universes where anon stays a basement dweller
In fsn, Shirou has the potential to be a heroic spirit, but is not always one
>>140521486
>that means there's an infinite amount of universes where you're a doctor or lawyer instead of a basement dweller.
You don't actually know that.(And we don't live in basements where I'm from)
There are two scenarios. "Given an infinite amount of universes you could have picked the orange juice instead of the apple juice" which is true and then "Given an infinite amount of universes dogs could be cats" which is not true.
You don't actually know what fits in which category. Me becoming a lawyer or a doctor may actually be impossible in all universes. This is way I brought up the 3, 4, 5 example. I just wanted to point out that unless you know everything about the system you are talking about you can't deduce useful knowledge from applying an infinity to it.
It being fictional is significant because it's up to Nasu what is and isn't possible. Autistic reverence of "realism" is not synonymous with good writing. This is only a plot hole if you really, really want it to be.
>>140521766
Infinite is INFINITE which means there's simultaneously an infinite number of universes where Anon's a basement dweller AND an infinite amount where he's a Heroic Spirit,
Shirou has the potential but so would everyone else, considering infinity is infinity.
>>140521834
Did you not get my numbers analogy?
>>140521779
>>140521886
This. Infinite doesn't mean something impossible will happen.
Even with infinite universes you will not start spontaneously levitating above your chair. Something that's impossible will not happen no matter how many tries it has.
>>140522033
But becoming a heroic spirit isn't levitating. Humans can't levitate, they can become heroic spirits however.
>>140520968
I don't necessarily see how that's a "problem", just maybe an observation with the possibility for hilarious headcanon.
It could be something along the lines of a "limited multiverse". Where each universe can only diverge so much from each other. Kind of think like Steins;Gate and the percentage thing. I think the thing is we don't have the exact schematics and multiverse logic/theories it uses. Regardless just like >>140521423 says, it's not a Sci-fi; where everything gets/needs to be explained to you in detail. If anything it's a fantasy where the explanation just winds up boiling down to "It just works".
>>140521834
But there are different types of infinite. You can achieve an infinite number of universes just simply depending on how a single person would dress. You don't need to go so far as to even have a universe where coffee isn't a drink to achieve an infinite amount of universes. In the end, we just simply don't know what kind of "infinite" infinite universes uses, or how it affects it.
>>140520968
>couldn't ANYTHING be an artifact for a heroic spirit
No, not at all. That pendant was special to Shirou, that's why it was an artifact. It was the only memento he had for the mysterious person who saved his life (who he later finds out was Rin).
>>140522205
I can accept things working like Steins;Gate, I guess.
>>140522195
People have their limits. Do you really believe anyone can become the fastest swimmer, runner or the strongest man in the world, given just infinite tries? Me or you, for example? No, there will be something, like in this case their body, limiting them every single time, making it impossible.
>>140520968
>due to the fact that the Shirou in all 3 routes never becomes EMIYA
What?
>>140522460
He doesn't. The heroic spirit EMIYA comes from a route similar to the Fate route where he and Saber never get together; and thus never "save" each other.
>>140522378
If there's a infinite number of universes than there's an infinite number of universes where both the middle schooler becomes a heroic spirit and those panties are something special to them and artifact worthy.
>>140522553
>The heroic spirit EMIYA comes from a route similar to the Fate route
Do you have a source to that statement?
If not I call BS.
>>140520968
Of the many inconsistencies with FSN's plot, this is not among them. It's a solid, fairly simple concept, and doesn't require to be verified in existential detail.
Now, Shriou being able swordspam Gil-but-noone-else on the other hand...
Going to school without his servant everyday, despite being warned better by everybody, and continuing to do this even AFTER he is attacked by another master at school while not having his servant, and had to use a command spell to summon her...
>>140522604
Well then I guess that it never happened. If there are an infinite number of universe then you can use your logic the other way around and deduce what did and didn't happen.
>>140522640
Not him but what makes you think that's NOT the case? Do you have anything backing up what you believe?
Nobody grows a foot after age 18
>>140522738
They can exist and not exist infinitely and simultaneously, simpleton.
>>140522640
http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Archer_%28Fate/stay_night%29#cite_note-4
>>140520968
Yes, and that's why Archer being Shirou was dumb.
Archer as a glass was stupid anyway. You have Robin Hood, William Tell...and that's it.
>>140522818
I meant using the logic in the OP. If I ry to summon a heroic spirit using panties and nothing happens then I can deduce that we live an universe where panties have never become significant to someone who became a heroic spirit.
>>140522853
*class.
>>140522853
Nasu used "Archer" but his intent was something closer to "Ranger". Think Aragorn rather than Robin Hood. Hercules is at his strongest as Archer because, despite his renown as a melee fighter that you would think would make him a solid Saber, his true strength was his mind and his ability to act independently.
This is also why there's so few "Archer"s that use Bows. Rangers are Melee fighters who COULD specialize in bows, if they so chose.
>>140522884
No, someone becoming a heroic spirit and associating with a certain artifact might be both infinitely possible and infinitely impossible, but the Throne of Heroes would only record them becoming heroic spirits, so it would only be possible to summon them because you can't summon something that isn't there in the first place.
>>140522853
>>140522887
Gilgamesh doesn't even touch a bow and Archer uses one a handful of times. It's pretty blatant that the class requirement isn't bow usage and heroic spirits aligned to this don't need to use a bow, but have some kind of ranged capability. Lee Harvey Oswald when?
>>140522553
>>140522824
Well I looked it up, you're probably right in that point.
>>140522992
How are you contradicting me?
>>140522942
>Ranger
That's a better concept, even if it is a little lord-of-the-ringsy, but I doubt nasu had that in mind when he did the saber-archer-lancer thing. He was probably just referencing the immediate archetypes of medieval European military.
>>140523081
He was thinking of D&D.
>>140523109
Now I want a Fate SoL where Shirou, Rin, Saber, Sakura and Rider and playing DnD and Archer is the DM
>>140523081
Rangers are a class in D&D which Nasu plays (among other things). They are melee fighters who can use bows and have pets.
The most famous one is probably Minsc (an Boo).
>>140523045
>How are you contradicting me?
>summon a heroic spirit using panties and nothing happens then I can deduce that we live an universe where panties have never become significant to someone who became a heroic spirit.
Because that's an impossibility.
>>140523177
Why?
Remember when Shirou killed ISIS with magial bows and arrows? Remember how gay that was?
Nasu should have had him killing US bankers with magical bows and arrows.
>>140523223
Because:
>As shown with the pendant: Even if it doesn't lead to a Heroic Spirit in your perceived universe, it can still summon a heroic spirit associated with it in another universe
>The Throne of Heroes records all Heroic Spirits across all universes
It doesn't record "blank space" so the possibility of not summoning a heroic spirit doesn't exist because you can only summon heroic spirits.
It records only the infinite amount of panties using middle schooler heroic spirits, not the times she doesn't become one.
>>140523328
Leave that to CG Jackson.
>>140520968
What do I use to summon Shiki? I want to win Grail in one night.
>>140523495
My point was that if the catalyst that you use is ignore and the summoning uses you and chance as a basis then you can deduce that no heroic spirit have as a catalyst panties.
This is using your own logic.
>>140523554
Your gland. Or maids.
>>140523495
You're retarded.
Infinite universes does not mean infinite possibilities. Panties could go outside and get hit by a Japanese truck the next morning an infinite number of times and there would still be infinite universes.
Infinite possibilities is an ENTIRELY different concept.
>>140523574
No, because there isn't a possibility that the catalyst is ignored because the catalyst is only infinitely important, not infinitely unimportant, because the Throne of Heroes exists across universes.
I wish the multiverse concept was never discovered by normalfags.
>>140523652
>No, because there isn't a possibility that the catalyst is ignored
You haven't proved this or even tried to. You're just assuming this because you keep thinking that infinite = everything.
>>140523609
but there'd simultaneously be an infinite number of universe where she isn't hit by a truck. To the Throne of Heroes only the infinite number of universes where she becomes a hero matters and are recorded.
>>140523711
>there'd simultaneously be an infinite number of universe where she isn't hit by a truck.
How do you now this? You're just pulling shit out your ass.
>>140523682
Why how could it be ignored?
You could fail the summoning because you fucked up or were unskilled, not because there was an infinite amount of universes where the artifact is unimportant.
There's an infinite amount of universes where the pendant is unimportant or where Rin fucked up the ritual, that didn't effect the Rin in the game though.
>>140523711
No there wouldn't. What are you basing that off? If it's a universal impossibility that she does not get hit by a truck then she gets hit by a truck, period.
Infinite possibilities is a different concept following an entirely different line of thinking.
>>140523711
>but there'd simultaneously be an infinite number of universe where she isn't hit by a truck.
Strong assumption. Panties could just s easily be hit by a truck in every universe.
>>140523754
Infinite is infinite which means there'd simultaneously be infinite positives and infinite negatives existing together.
>>140523868
No, now you're just making shit up. There is an infinite amount of numbers between 1 and 2 and none of them are 2.
>>140523780
If the catalyst doesn't correspond to any Heroic Spirit then it won't be used to summon anything. The VN explains that Heroic Spirits can be chosen based on your personality.
>>140523671
I don't think the problem lies in knowing about the multiverse theory itself, it's the problem of people assuming infinite universes has to do with an absolute infinity rather than an actual infinity.
>>140523868
But there are different types of infinite. Infinite != everything baka-chan
>>140523328
Shirou only wants to kill brown people.
>>140524719
>Shirou wants to kill terrorists from ME
>Shirou wants to kill Archer who has brown skin
>Shirou wants to kill Gilgamesh who is from ME
>Shirou wants to kill Heracles who has brown/bronze skin in berserker form
Holy shit you're right
>>140524719
That's why he wanted to kill himself
>>140520968
What the fuck? Archer wasn't summoned because Rin had the pendant, it was because he had Rin's pendant.
>>140525563
You're retarded, think through what happened again and try to find the fault in your post.
>>140522942
Oh god that would be weirdly perfect if they went with "Ranger" instead of "Archer". Like, especially from a translation perspective.
"Hero of Justice"
Sentai
Power Rangers
Ranger
I don't think that infinite amount of universes makes sense as a concept, since even if the world ultimately worked so there always is a place somewhere, then even if the amount of places could be infinite, the amount of scenarios that can be run cannot.
It's just lottery machine, sure, you can have inifinite amouts of them theoretically, but within the system they will always have finite amount of results.
>>140526004
He's right though. They literally say so in the VN.
>>140520968
Since Heroic Spirit TO-SAKA actually is a thing now, Rin could very well have ended up summoning herself.
>>140529315
T O H S A K A
O
H
S
A
K
A
a best
>>140520968
Purely technically, yes, anything could be an artifact usable for summoning. That doesn't necessarily mean everything is. And, truth be told, it probably isn't a good idea to use an artifact that is a servant from the future. The main reason being you'd be summoning a servant you have no information about. If you're summoning King Arthur you have a solid idea of what you'll be getting. Summoning a heroic spirit who either hasn't become one yet in your timeline or doesn't even exist or won't come to exist in your timeline could result in you summoning a pathetically weak servant.
>>140530041
couldn't you use its knowledge of the future?
the problem with fate is, yeah. There's an infinite number of universes, and not all of them SHOULD be possible(4-5 analogy thank you), but....in fate there's so many things that can happen. Heck, there'd probably be an infinite number of universes where Tohsaka is summoned as a hero, or even generic joe blow become sa hero because Gilgamesh dropped a potion on him, or maybe someone else just became a hero with only excalibur's sheath. The issue is, there's so many timelines twisting and turning, and can do so many things that're normally impossible.
>>140530693
Stop pulling stupid fanfiction ideas out of your ass.
>>140530224
Possibly, if its timeline is the same as yours, but if there are even minor changes (almost assuredly) it's may not even be helpful.
EMIYA had the benefit of being summoned into the very HGW he was a master in, so he had knowledge of his opponents, but even then, against opponents like Cuchullain, Arthur, and Heracles, he was still at a disadvantage. And his knowledge was literally best possible for the war.
>>140530864
It's not, I'm just explaining how truly infinite works. Especially in fate. Yeah, there's a timeline where shinji becomes a hero, blah blah blah. It's also why I don't like timelines, because....Like, there's a universe where all the things allign, but that's the universe where everything alligns. On the other hand, it also explains away all the "What're the chances?" questions.
>>140530995
Jaden, go back to spouting pseudo bullshit philosophy on twitter and stop shitposting.
>>140520968
>Given this, couldn't ANYTHING be an artifact for a heroic spirit because there's infinite universes and therefore infinite possibilites? Like monkeys typing out Shakespeare eventually?
One problem that plagues the monkeys-typing-Shakespeare scenario, is what a mind-boggling large amount of random crap will be generated elsewise -- so huge that the human mind isn't good at handling it, such that emotionally we cap the size of it.
You'd have to spend amazing amounts of computational power and memory to be able to index the occasional coherent sentence. Likewise, your hypothetical panty artifact might be linked to some alternate-probability heroine, but it would be greatly dwarfed by the number of probabilities in which they belong to an ordinary schoolgirl.
The lower the probability of an outcome, the more crap you'd have to sift through to summon the one realization. Very quickly, you'd hit the limits of your mage skills and mana to do so.
>>140522942
The Archers here are closer to a D&D Rogue with emphasis on ranged weapons.
>>140530869
>Possibly, if its timeline is the same as yours, but if there are even minor changes (almost assuredly) it's may not even be helpful.
i mean like technology and shit
>>140520968
Pic related is an in-universe example disproving infinite possibilities. He's not in HA cause there's no possible reality where he survives the 5th war.
>>140529597
Wow, Rin fucking becomes an ugly ass slut.
>>140536626
She always was one.
>>140536626
Have a superior aged Rin. That shit was drawn by Pokemon's character designer
>>140536626
>>140536787
Hey faggots, TOHSAKA is literally objectively the best girl, so go fuck yourselves.
>>140530869
>EMIYA had the benefit of being summoned into the very HGW he was a master in, so he had knowledge of his opponents
Not really. Archer had almost no memories of his life and didn't even remember Rin's name until he she summoned him.
He had about as much knowledge as any other Servant, the exception being that he knew about Saber since their first meeting was his strongest memory.
>>140537244
He got his memories back the morning after he was summoned.
At the beginning of the game, his memory was supposedly fuzzy due to an imperfect summoning, but in reality that was only partially true.
The night he was summoned (after Rin went to sleep), he assessed the present situation, figured out his circumstances, and concluded that the opportunity to complete his objective had at long last appeared.
However, he didn't realize the girl who summoned him was Tohsaka Rin until she introduced herself. (His memory wasn't fuzzy, the name "Tohsaka Rin" had simply been worn away by time.)
At that moment, it all came rushing back like lightning.
"Then I'll call you Rin. ...Yes, it suits you well."
Archer's murmur at that time was thick with a heartfelt and madly passionate affection.
>>140537089
>Fucking Caked to shit lips
>Slut as FUCK heels
>Stupid fucking horns
>Can't even tell where her hair is.
Only good thing is she has glasses and tits now
>>140523167
Let's be real here anon, it's probably Drizzt.
>>140536887
>Pokemon's character designer
Bull, I have trouble enough thinking about how much of a huge Sega fan Sugimori as it is
source on that info senpai?
Magic nigga
>>140537513
>Big, kissable lips
>Heels made for walking
>Omnipotent heaven piercing drills
>Hair firmly on her head
How can other women even compete?
>>140537698
Didn't see Shiki there before.
Damn pandering.
>>140538326
Also Ryunosuke's by Shirou.
>>140521423
>Not everything is or needs to be high sci-fi.
BLASPHEMY.
>>140520968
>>140521200
>>140521423
>>140521486
>>140521766
>>140521834
>>140522604
All of you talking about infinity are idiots. There are so many in this thread I can't tag them all so just photoshop your (You) in there.
There are not infinite possibilities in the Nasuverse. All things have their Origin at the Root. As things flow away from the Root they diverge infinitely. The Throne sits downstream of the Root such that all souls stored within converge on their Origin.
The pendant that summons EMIYA need not be from a timeline in which a version of Shirou became EMIYA because all of the infinite pendants have the same Origin.
All things that flow from the Root diverge infinitely. A thing's Origin will necessarily constrain what happens within that infinite flow.
Thus, it is abundantly clear to even the casual observer that amongst all of the possessions of the infinite Shirou there are only a few artifacts that will summon EMIYA.
What if I owned King Arthur's underwear? Would that be enough to summon her?
>>140520968
As far as I'm aware no other heroic spirit has ever been summoned into a timeline where they definitively did not exist.
Nasu is also very careful to state that the "probability" of Shirou becoming Archer in the F/SN routes is "low" not that it doesn't happen.
Archer is also unique in that he comes from the future, which is hugely unlikely within the context of F/SN since changes in human cultures since the late 1800s have made it impossible for a human to achieve the kind of fame necessary to become a legitimate heroic spirit. Archer is a counter guardian and those can only be summoned in Fuyuki due to the corruption of the grail.
With those points in mind, Rin or any other master needs to accidentally come into contact with an item that belongs to someone who is both dumb/desperate enough to become a counter guardian AND might experience events that lead them to become one in the future. No master has ever summoned a nameless nobody from the 14th century who became an Heroic Spirit in a vastly different alternate history.
Given how both Archer and those around him treat his contract to become a CG, people who are desperate/dumb enough to make a deal like that must be something of a rare case. Furthermore, Shirou technically CAN become archer within any of his own routes due to his very unusual background and mentality. He's fucked in the head in a particular way that pretty much no one else is. Kirei was deranged on a similar level but he would never consider it.
Even if the sweet innocent schoolgirl whose panties were stolen COULD have become a CG in a universe where she was born into war and desolation or something, if she lives in 21st century Japan and doesn't have mental problems that cause her to run towards danger, there's not much that's going to endear her to selling her soul for all eternity.
The chances of a master coming into contact with an artifact of someone who satisfies ALL of these conditions is inordinately low.
>>140520968
Holy shit guys.... He figured it out... w-what now?
>>140544354
Even if it was the only pair of underwear she ever wore, the probability of summoning her with that artifact is less than that of Avalon or any other object bound up in her legend. The Origin of things will result in infinite legends converging on a Heroic Spirit which will fail to respond to moldy old panties.
![d269fac2ef2066c83dfb2f70a4213745[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/dhaxHCN.jpg "d269fac2ef2066c83dfb2f70a4213745[1].jpg")
>If there are infinite universes, then there must be a universe where Kiritsugu summoned EMIYA instead of Arturia
>>140537244
Pretty much this >>140537363
Do you really think Archer would say "yeah I'm actually your former classmate though I guess for you your current classmate that is also participating in this very war but btw I want to kill him because muh regret so I'm probably going to ignore you a lot"
>>140534275
Anon, just because I come from a time where antigravity is a common thing doesn't mean I know jack ahit about how it works
>>140544618
Rin has a much better chance of summoning an aspect of EMIYA that we interpret as KIRITSUGU than Kiritsugu has of summoning EMIYA.
Kiritsugu had no family heirlooms to pass to Shirou that could subsequently become bound up in EMIYA's legend. Maybe if he had the Holy Shroud that Ciel would later give to Shirou and some other master had already summoned whoever actually made it holy.
>>140544618
>>140545066
>Kiritsugu goes on a panty raid in loli Rin's drawers
>comes across that bitchin necklace
>"meh, I guess I'll take this too"
Fund it.
>>140545133
He simply didn't get that chance.
>>140545066
Isn't it possible for the master himself to act as a catalyst? Because as the person that basically inspired all of EMIYA's ideals, Kiritsugu on his own should be the absolute strongest catalyst for summoning EMIYA you could have. Also, regardless of what happened afterwards, EMIYA had Avalon internalized for at least 10 years up until the start of his Grail War. Couldn't that also serve as a catalyst for him, even if it's also one for Arturia?
How exactly does the Grail handle catalysts that correspond to more than one hero?
>>140545211
Didn't Arturia basically just look up at the sky as she lay dying and offer herself up?
We've never for sure seen Shirou make the contract (the anime may or may not hold sway with some people) but given that he's not very bright or an incredibly accomplished magus it's not likely that it requires a lot of knowledge or technical know-how. Arturia expressly never learned magecraft in life yet still made the deal.
>>140545133
Do you even Hero's Journey?
The only thing Kiritsugu can ever do is make EMIYA. He can't be a hero because no one ever made him.
>>140545345
Avalon wouldn't be used as a catalyst for EMIYA. We don't really know much about the locket besides the fact he carried it with him the rest of his life.
Allegedly, EMIYA's grail war was similar to the fate route, so it may not be too farfetched to assume he gave Avalon back to Saber.
But even so, in all the routes he didn't give it back, Shirou wasn't even aware of Avalon's presence within him.
And all of this is ultimately trumped anyway by the fact Avalon is associated with Arthur first and foremost.
>>140545424
I'm guessing that the world reaches out to people. Arturia was very powerful in her lifetime. And Archer/Shirou had his Reality Marble which is quite a rare ability onto itself.
>>140545595
Fair enough. My point about Kiritsugu basically being the ultimate catalyst for EMIYA still stands, though.
>>140545424
It might be kind of an obscure thing.
Kerry may or may have not known about that option, but Archer for sure met Saber and may have discovered the concept that way. If anything, the fact that Archer but not Kerry went through with it despite Kerry having equal or greater motivation indicates that hemay simply not have known it was a possibility.
>>140545424
I think the anime is about as clear as we're every gonna get it.
A big blue fucking thing comes up behind you, makes you an offer, then rubs some slimy tentacle strands on you.
>>140538380
HE'LL FINALLY MEET HIS FATHER?
>>140545776
It's like poetry.
>>140545641
You're underselling Saber. The time he separates from her (HF), he abandons that path. without Saber influence, he would drop those ideals like a hot potato. That's why EMIYA always remembers meeting her clearly and not anything else all the time. She was the basis of who he is. Hell, his soul and origin was shaped and changed by Avalon, which is half of Excalibur (soulbonded to Arturia).
>>140545345
The catalyst is a requirement of the summoning ritual, not an organizing property of the Throne.
I suppose the rules could be constructed such that Masters use themselves as catalysts, kind of a "This is Your Life" Grail War.
Consider the example of Ryuunosuke. Masters are likely to be algorithmically selected by the Grail -- not the Throne -- based on either suitability or relative distance to a catalyst. Kiritsugu would not enter intending to be a Master without having secured a catalyst.
>>140545898
So you're saying Shirou wanting to be a hero is all because of Saber, despite him clearly adopting this ideal from Kerry, and having held it long before he even met Saber. Your sole reasoning for this is because he goes after Sakura's wormpussy in Heaven's Feel, and because he had Avalon internalized, despite Avalon only ever being stated to be responsible for the form that UBW takes. Forgive me if I find that less than convincing.
>>140545898
Shirou dropped his ideals in HF for a large and complicated set of reasons. Despite what you may think, Takeuchi, this entire franchise doesn't revolve around Saber.
>>140546432
>"I want to bang my kouhai and am unwilling to forgo her pussy to save the innocent"
>"large and complicated set of reasons"
>>140520968
He is able to be summoned because he is a counter guardian, which can be summoned in any era, while the grial has a rule to summon heroic spirits before year 1900 AC.
>>140529597
Would Rin want to fuck her heroic spirit future self?
>>140547414
>save the innocent
But that's Sakura.
>>140549534
>Sakura
>Innocent
>>140546270
>>140546432
Saber is a mentor like Kiritsugu. She defines his character as HERO, even he realizes he 'wouldn't stray' as long as he's close to her in the beginning. Saber getting snagged and darkened is the symbolic downfall for his ideals. Yes, I do think FSN does revolt around the relationship of Shirou (both EMIYA and regular one) and Saber, it's not always romantic or even positive.
>>140529597
Is there a Heroic Spirit MATOU or EINZBURN out there somewhere?
>>140550232
Did you spend the last hour and a half carefully writing that comeback?
>>140550232
The only route where Saber gets put on such a pedestal for Shirou is Fate, and I will admit, there, she is the fucking moon and stars to him. He created a miracle to reach her.
But that's definitely not the case in UBW or HF. In UBW in particular, it's actually the opposite. Saber learns from Shirou. She sees his actions fighting for his ideal, and gets an answer for herself.
I want to summon Paul Bunyan as a berserker.
Or an attack helicopter as an archer.
>>140520968
>couldn't you use your own favorite pair of jeans as an artifact because there's an infinite amount of universes where you're a Saber clone who has them enchanted and wears them into battle?
We're all heroic spirits, anon. We just don't answer our calls for a grail war because we know to become the heroes that we truly are, we need to face our battles by our own strength.
Everyone knows /a/ wouldn't even get to join a grail war with a servant. We'd probably just be a random third party ruining the war for everyone else, complaining about how the Grail War was only good in the 1940s and the new Grail Wars are just moeshit in comparison.
Even in multiverse theory, you're still dealing with probability. Bell curves with normal distribution extend infinitely, but you still have standard deviations.
Is there a heroic sprit 7/11 sign? Sure. But the probability of summonning it even with a catalyst is low just because of how unlikely its existence is. Meanwhile, the number of universes where emiya becomes great are fairly high.
>>140524936
>No Archer, you are the brownskin
>>140550322
No, I went to make me a sandwich.
>>140550333
>The only route where Saber gets put on such a pedestal for Shirou is Fate
This is wrong. Go back and actually replay, he says and thinks the same about her in every route. She's like Kiritsugu for Shirou, Saber defines him. That's why in order to destroy and be reborn anew, he has to kill her and his memories of her in HF. She's symbolic mentor of his hero path. Exact same shit happens in UBW, but the Shirou who is struggling with Saber is EMIYA, who even interrupts his manpain to try to argue with her. His absolution isn't complete unless he persuades her in a way. That's why she's the witness while Rin, in the most important scene of her own route, is completely missing. Because Rin was never part of that world.
If he hadn't met Saber, Shirou would have likely abandoned Kiritsugu's ideals eventually, because it was meeting her that reinforced them. She IS the King of Ideals, for a fucking reason, anon. Saber's gender and cute girl bullshit are unimportant, he could have been a guy and it'll be the same in this. Saber and Kiritsugu made Shirou as he is. They brought his death, rebirth and overviewed his education as the Ally of Justice. That's why in HF, he must kill Saber and, if you pay attention to what memories he's shattering, it's not just his meeting with her, but also the moonlight scene with Kiritsugu.
>>140552130
She's the King of Knights.
>Shirou would have likely abandoned
No you fucking tool.
>>140552130
>>140550333
I forgot to add, this doesn't mean Saber doesn't learn from him. She and Kiritsugu were his role models, but they were broken down by their own actions, they found peace in Shirou's answers. Something like she's his mother, and that's exactly how Nasu defines her outside Fate.
>>140552198
She's also called the King of Ideals. What do you think Excalibur is, retard? The sword that contains all the fucking ideals. And the sword and Saber are one. "The brilliance of the sword is her own brilliance." Seems like you didn't get Saber's character at all.
>No
Yes, he would have. He didn't have direction. He didn't do shit about it until the Grail War, for example. What do you think change him? It was meeting with Saber that reinforced them.
>>140552272
Holy shit you're autistic
>>140552198
She's both, anon-kun. Gilgamesh is the king of human ingenuity, Arturia the king of ideals.
>>140552130
>This is wrong. Go back and actually replay, he says and thinks the same about her in every route. She's like Kiritsugu for Shirou, Saber defines him
You know that Shirou doesn't have the dreams about Saber's past outside of Fate, right?
No. Shirou, outside of Fate, is not enamored with her to such a degree as you are claiming. Certainly not on the level of Kiritsugu, the man who saved his life and raised him as his own.
>If he hadn't met Saber, Shirou would have likely abandoned Kiritsugu's ideals eventually
Pure speculation and fanfiction.
>>140552369
I mean no, really, fucking look at Shirou's relationship with her in UBW. It's pleasant, and he cares about her, but she is not something he'd put above all else.
Losing her in HF was bad, but it was part of a series of crippling blows that ended up changing him.
>>140552272
This is the same damn Shirou who was nicknamed the Janitor because he'd help out around the school and do favours for everyone, even the jackasses like Shinji. I'm sure Shirou just sat around twiddling his damn thumbs the whole time though.
Name any time when Saber was called the King of Ideals.
>>140552344
OTHER than some shitty ass card game that barely counts.
>>140552369
>You know that Shirou doesn't have the dreams about Saber's past outside of Fate, right?
It's irrelevant. Go and read the beginning of each route and there's the exact same scene about how Saber is his guide and he wouldn't 'stray' as long as she's by his side.
>No. Shirou, outside of Fate, is not enamored with her to such a degree as you are claiming.
I don't think you understand: this isn't about romantic longing. Saber is his mom in UBW and HF. This is Nasu's word. She's like his mother.
>Pure speculation and fanfiction.
Please tell me what part of pre-meeting Saber Shirou is an ally of justice.
>>140552272
>He didn't do shit about it until the Grail War, for example
He was 16 years old, what did you want him to fucking do?
Even then he helped the people around him to the point of obsession.
>>140552430
>OTHER than some shitty ass card game that barely counts.
It was in CM. Arturia is the embodiment of ideals because of Excalibur, like Gilgamesh is the embodiment of ingenuity because of Gate of Babylon. Gilgamesh is so enamoured with her because she's not something he can claim.
>>140552464
>Saber is his mom in UBW and HF. This is Nasu's word. She's like his mother.
Source: My ass
>>140552464
It's not irrelevant. There is no foundation for the relationship you are describing outside of Fate.
I mean he barely has any words to say about her in the UBW epilogue, because their relationship was fleeting at best.
>Please tell me what part of pre-meeting Saber Shirou is an ally of justice.
What fucking opportunity did he have to be a Hero of Justice prior to it? I mean Kirei himself talks about the Grail War being his chance.
>>140552416
>Losing her in HF was bad, but it was part of a series of crippling blows that ended up changing him.
Literally cannot deal with losing her, so he had to erase his memories of her in order to continue existing.
>I mean no, really, fucking look at Shirou's relationship with her in UBW.
Yes, you know, the one she acts as mediator between Shirou and EMIYA while Rin is tossed aside. The one thing EMIYA stops to consider when he's full suicidal. He wants to ramble and seek Saber's approval. She's extremely pivotal to Archer's resolution which was the whole point of UBW.
Nasu even had an additional scene for Shirou meeting her grave to seek peace of mind after years in the anime epilogue.
>>140552520
Which one?
>>140552537
Source: UBW BD Boxset I.
>>140552580
>What fucking opportunity did he have to be a Hero of Justice prior to it?
He could have gone vigilante during the nights. There's plenty of them but he had zero fucking motivation, anon. That's the fucking point.
As for the rest read >>140552613
>>140552664
Saber's, II. Also in Zero Animation book. Gilgamesh in CCC Material. She's the king of ideals. It's also mentioned in Garden of Avalon.
>>140544125
Can you make a picture because this doesn't seem easy to explain without visuals?
>>140552613
>he had to erase his memories of her
Fucking what? Were you high when you played Heaven's Feel? That didn't happen at all.
>she acts as mediator between Shirou and EMIYA
You mean when she just stood by eating popcorn while Shirou and EMIYA had their slap fight? She didn't mediate shit.
>>140552699
>He could have gone vigilante during the nights
And do what? What could he be vigilante about? Nothing was happening before the Grail War started.
>>140552537
Saber is in love with Merlin. Shirou's a kid to her outside of pandering to otaku-route.
>>140552613
>Literally cannot deal with losing her, so he had to erase his memories of her in order to continue existing.
At the very end of the story, where he's already losing huge chunks of himself physically, and mentally. It was something bad that happened, but you are entirely ignoring the countless other awful things happening to him.
>Yes, you know, the one she acts as mediator between Shirou and EMIYA while Rin is tossed aside
Saber's role in that scene isn't to aid either Shirou or Archer, it's to aid herself. She's present because it's pivotal to /her/ development. She sees /herself/ in Shirou.
Saber changed nothing about that scene. It was entirely between Shirou and Archer, and it was in fact their actions that changed /her/.
>>140552699
>He could have gone vigilante during the nights
He was a fucking 16 year old teenager who barely knew tracing magic. He helped his friends and schoolmates out to the point of exhaustion, but that's seriously about as best as you could do in a place like Japan while still being a minor.
>>140552857
Like, you see this scene here?
Shirou is an Arthur parallel.
Saber sees this, and sees what lengths he goes to follow his dream without regrets, and realizes she should as well.
>>140552828
>Saber is in love with Merlin. Shirou's a kid to her outside of pandering to otaku-route.
Source: Still my ass
>>140545133
I think Kerry more or less gave up on that after the grail war and was escaping that reality.
>>140552802
>Nothing was happening before the Grail War started.
There were a bunch of gangs and rapists running loose. The first guys the Shadow ate were some of those. There was a brutal murder (related to the Grail War) as the VN began and Shirou's not going full herofag and going to research. Pay attention, he's all talk, no walk about his ally of justice until Saber appears.
>You mean when she just stood by eating popcorn
EMIYA explained his motivations to her, she was there as his mirror figure where he reflected and major sore spot of his failures. He wanted Saber to understand him.
>That didn't happen at all.
Such speed reader.
>There were memories.
>There was the warmth of life.
>Her warmth was always by my side.
>I kill her along with those memories.
>I search through my mind and throw them away to where I can't find them again.
>They'll never return.
>I'll never recall her now.
>Such a thing will never be forgiven.
>>140552945
Not that anon, but Nasu said this:
>The Saber in the Rin Route is a mother in a certain sense, positioned sort of as Shirou and Rin's guardian.
Presumably the same might be applicable to HF until she's altered.
Saber told Merlin she might have been in love with him in Garden of Avalon. It's all a sad star-crossed autistic love story.
>>140553078
>goodbye was Arturia's confession and Merlin blowing her off stating neither knew how to do human love and feelings
>realizes that he indeed loves her and regrets for the first time in his life, gets stuck in prison in avalon for his regret and 'sin'
>hopelessly unable to interfere to spare Arturia from her face while wishing her happiness
Poor guy.
>>140552986
Shirou had no means to stop any of these things.
You seem to think the guy has no concept of basic reasoning. He does. While he'll do his best to help others when he can, he wasn't going to go on wild goose chases to find rapists.
And again, what could he have done? Prior to the grail war, he was nothing but a physically fit human.
>>140553188
>Shirou had no means to stop any of these things.
Shirou never has means to stop anything, he suicidally throws himself to combat even if he's vastly outmatched and has no understanding of what the fuck is coming on after he meets Saber. There's a huge attitude shift.
He always does wild goose chases, patrolling the neighborhoods in general after he got swept into this. Saber is just as vital and important as Kiritsugu. Kiritsugu gave him the ideals, Saber gave him the inspiration to apply them further. She's an inspiring figure, it's not just for him, for all the knights. In GoA, it's describing this aura she has to make people follow their ideals. It's part of what she is, you know? This has nothing to do with heroine wars, so calm down.
>>140553263
>Shirou never has means to stop anything
When he's given command seals, he's inherently being given a means to protect people in a way that the average joe can't.
He's involved with the Grail War, that means he can work to prevent as many casualties as possible.
Kirei literally goes on about how this is his opportunity to prove himself. "Rejoice boy", and all that?
It has nothing inherently to do with Saber.
Why does Saber get a hot incubus romance while Rin gets fat old men and Sakura gets Shinji outside their routes?
>>140553476
>while Rin gets fat old men
Not canon.
>>140553476
Rin gets best girl though in HF Good end.
>>140553503
No, but the possibility of a Luvia end is.
>>140553503
There aren't many guys of her generation with enough money in the Clock Tower. There's Waver who is gay, that dog guy who loves Grey, and Flat who is more interested in mercury maids.
>>140553552
Rin grows a dick.
Impregnates Luvia.
>>140553476
Damn he's pretty. Seiba has god tier taste.
>>140553552
Good thing Rin really likes girls then.
>>140553476
>Rin gets fat old men
Not real. Which makes Rin the least slut of the three.
>>140553630
She'll marry guys in every route that isn't UBW. Remember she had a family in HF normal.
>>140553675
You're one of those people who called BokuMachi NTR aren't you?
>>140545066
Wouldn't Avalon be a catalyst for EMIYA, since it is now part of his legend as well? It was implanted in him as part of his body for quite some time, after all, and protected him from death on multiple occasions.
>>140553919
No, I just said she'll move on. She's more gay for Saber than into Shirou in Fate and she'll eventually marry someone once she explores her lesbianism with Rider in HF.
>>140545595
But EMIYA is aware of Avalon's presence, which is what counts. It could have become an either/or catalyst for EMIYA/Arturia
>>140554408
If only the Dick growing magic hadn't been lost. Then she would never need to marry a man. She could find a cute girl to impregnate.
Why do I want a FGO scenario where Merlin and Arturia are reunited with EMIYA, Gil and other fags BTFO at her favoring him.
>>140554579
You don't really know if she would favour Merlin over say EMIYA. It was a fleeting and one-sided crush, there's a big chance she's long since gotten over it.
>>140554579
Why would EMIYA give a shit?
>>140554437
Yeah, and if we're assuming EMIYA won his GW with Saber there's a high chance he returned Avalon to her. So of course he'd know about it. If that's the case, he didn't have it when he did a lot of his fighting ISIS shenanigans. And even so, Rin from what I remember is really the only one that accidentally summoned a random servant. I'm pretty sure you'd summon Arthur if you had Avalon and were aiming to summon Arthur. No one with Avalon is going to aim to summon EMIYA. He's the "nameless servant" after all, and from the future no less.
That being said, you may be right, and he may be summonable with it. But there's no reason anyone should ever do so with Avalon.
How many Grail Wars does Saber remember fighting in alongside Shirou?
>>140554946
EMIYA is in love with Saber. It's not hard reading the subtext and also Hollow Ataraxia.
>>140554408
Reminder in UBW good she's fucking both Shirou and Saber
>>140554946
EMIYA is in love with Seiba.
>>140555098
UBW good is also the worst ending in the VN.
>>140555158
We excluding the Taiga dojos here?
>>140554704
>fleeting one sided crush
>merlin requited her feelings but didn't realize it
>told him this when she was in her thirties
Don't think it's a fleeting crush. She just had no idea how to express herself. There is an added My Room line of Arturia recalling Merlin and she blushes and softly says that her heart would rest at ease if he were with them.
>>140555158
Doesn't change the fact that Rin is basically straight for Shirou.
>>140555098
In her dreams. Saber childzoned them >>140553078
>>140555086
>>140555156
I think EMIYA of all people could grasp the concept of there being different versions of the same people.
>>140555248
EMIYA still wants Saber even in UBW. Even Shirou could tell he was in love with her and he's dense. Rin teases him with Saber too. But Nasu went and completely cuck him because he wanted Merlin as his newest MC.
>>140555248
He does, but Saber is still the same person to him, no matter if she hasn't met him. She's still that dream he chases after, hell his ultimate attack in Fate/Extra is a tribute to her.
>>140555304
Merlin is cuter though.
>>140553476
Sakura always takes over the archery club post route, so she might get on with her own kouhai, Minori. Nasu kind of whitewashed that she still has the problems with Zouken post UBW, but she is friends with Ilya in the Fate route, so maybe the Justeaze inside Ilya got Zouken to piss off. Shinji's dead post Fate, and finally realized being butthurt about being heir to a broken house ain't worth shit with Mr. Mad Scientist Mummy Grandpa running it in UBW so it's really only Zouken Sakura has to worry about.
>>140528786
>>140526004
>>140525563
Rin summoned archer because she had the pendant that she would use to heal Shirou a few hours later, that pendant became an artifact in the universe where Shirou becomes EMIYA.
Can someone please tell me who this mysterious heroine is? I've seen her around
Is there a universe where Arc is my wife?
>>140562359
>>140562447
Yes, the one where she'sSeiba.
>>140522640
Nasu said that in one of the recent UBW anime interviews actually
>>140520968
Why can't Archer beat Berserker when Shirou could?
>>140566154
Actually yeah thinking about it, if Caliburn was strong enough to take several of Berserker's lives, why didn't Archer just use it then?
Dumb question: Do I have to read UBW if I saw the anime? I don't necessarily mind reading it but I kind of want to get on to HF already
>>140565579
Q: What was the 5th grail war that HS Emiya experienced in his lifetime like? Was the Archer summoned there also Emiya?
Nasu: It was a world where the conditions at the beginning of the war were mostly the same, but something was missing. Shirou summoned Saber and fought until the end, didn't save Saber's heart but understood her, and they destroyed the grail together and parted... that's the image I have.
Takeuchi: Ahh, so something like a Fate route Good End we didn't make in the game?!
Nasu: Yeah, probably. After that, it's believed he cooperates with Rin who survived, and heads to London.
pastebin.com/8zPfKaNd
http://beastslairwiki.pbworks.com/w/page/48620627/Saber%20(FUC)
>>140566295
Flip a coin or play it after HF
>post yfw merlin is fucking arturia everyday and you can't do anything about it
Destiny exists in nasuverse so thats probably why.
Basically the Fate route happens, archer dies before his identity is revealed and shirou wins the HGW, becoming archer later on in life.
Things get fucked up when UBW and HF happen though.
>>140566345
Flipped a coin, it said to read it. Fuck it, I'll read it after.
>>140552204
>she's his mother
Dear god, Freud was right!
>>140553476
Saber and Iri are the best couple in the series
>>140520968
Why didn't Rin summon herself instead of Emiya? Shouldn't she herself be a stronger catalyst than the pendant?
>>140565453
Someone explain this meme to me
>>140566154
>>140566256
Why is UBW said to only be an annoyance to most servants even though it could kill one of the most powerful Berserkers in existence no less than six times in a row?
>>140567761
You don't actually know if he even used UBW. It's more likely he kept dodging Berserker and charge up a bunch of broken phantasms because as it's noted, Berserker can only take damage from A-rank phantasms, and Archer's only A-rank phantasms are the broken ones. UBW itself would have no real effect on Berserker because the weapons that are immediately available there are at best B-rank
>>140566256
The Caliburn thing is something that shouldn't even work but just did because it just did.
>>140567936
Why not? Caliburn is the sword in the stone, it's still a great legendary sword. It having great power makes fine sense for its legend.
>>140567839
Only things we actually know is that he didn't use UBW, but used Crane Wings. Also, he could make A class phantasms.
>>140566256
It only worked because Saber there and some miracle of being reunited with the wielder thing
>>140568022
Final strike was miraculously powerful, but it still punched through God's Hand even before it.
>>140568115
Then there's nothing saying Archer DIDN'T use it, but it wouldn't have been powerful enough to kill him a bunch of times.
>>140568152
Actually, the fact that Berserker didn't mention it when he was dying indicates, that Archer didn't use it.
>>140567604
>>140568418
This tells me nothing
>>140522942
>>140523081
"Ranger" actually works very well. Back in AD&D 2nd edition, they were also the only class able to dual wield without penalties. And look at Archer's signature weapons.
Yeah, it seems very likely that the Ranger class was the inspiration for Nasu's "Archer".
>>140567604
/pol/ caught wind of a video of some people getting into hot air at a Trump rally. They singled out one guy from the video and decided he was a cuck. That line was made up by /pol/ and is not actually spoken in the video. And of course they started spreading their shit everywhere.
>>140529597
>Bayonetta
>Now you can't unsee it
>>140568115
It would have only been enough to kill him once though, and he's not lacking weapons with that power. Caliburn's real strength is impossible to use for anyone save Arturia, so it's not even a good choice from his available armory.
>>140552130
>If he hadn't met Saber, Shirou would have likely abandoned Kiritsugu's ideals eventually
This is some advanced level of retard.
>>140568631
It existed before Carl the Cuck.
They just came up with the variation
>"Don't talk to me or my wife's son ever again!".
>>140524928
Shirou also kills Saber when she goes black
>>140569100
Archer = Dante
Rin = Bayonetta
It's poetry.
>>140575690
Fuck, how did I not make that connection?
>>140569100
The likeness is intentional. You're supposed to see Bayonetta when you look at her. Unseeing it would be like ceasing to recognize that catgirls are supposed to look feline.
>>140577458
>catgirls are supposed to look feline.
Do you have sources on that or is it just your headcanon?
>>140577642
what are catgirls supposed to look like? Girls?
>>140558936
You have to admit that Saber gets a better deal. Minori and faceless guy cannot compete with Merlin.
>>140522553
Being together doesn't save Shirou or Saber, anon. The scene in the basement did it. Saber was dating Shirou and still told him to get the fuck out her face with her wish. He also didn't realize his issues until he went down the basement.
All Nasu said was that he couldn't save her, not that he didn't fuck her or dated her. Love doesn't necessary solve her issues, she already loves Merlin. She needed to realize she wanted to protect people she cared about and that she dindu nuffin'.
>>140566365
Why would I stop true love?
>>140520968
>there's infinite universes and therefore infinite possibilites?
That's wrong. Infinite universes does not mean infinite possibilities.
>>140579705
Yeah we covered that
