Why is it that despite being from the same series the difference between the original Dragon Ball and Z is like night and day?
less journey to the west themed and more superman themed
>>138802133
True. Ever since they ditched the mythological aspect the show went down the shitter, in more ways than one.
One is more of an adventure series and the other is more of a typical action shounen. So they are different kinds of series.
>>138802102
Same reason why Bram Stoker's Fist of the North Star became Monster of the Week adventure, then became Slice of Life with ghosts.
>>138802484
wat
Because Toriyama had yet to be ravaged by Alzheimer's when he first wrote Dragonball.
>>138803034
Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, going from Part 1 to 4.
>>138802102
I wouldn't say the difference is really night and day until the Cell Saga, and then the Buu Saga melds them back together a bit. Frieza Saga is very different from the past arcs, but it's still got a lot of what made Dragonball fun, just with everybody being adults and somewhat less original designs for the baddies. It's very similar to Red Ribbon or Piccolo. Cell Saga's the only one that's creatively a huge mess, and it's also the one with the most editorial interference.
>>138802133
>>138802102
This. Also the fact he planned for the manga to end at the end of dragon ball.
So he likely said, "well I'm done with adventures and stuff, what else could I do?" and figured on taking the king piccolo arc (ie fighting super strong non human to save world) to crazy directions since people liked it.
Why rehash the same idea? It was the natural progression for the series to go
>>138803243
The Frieza saga is quite honestly the most overrated part of the entire franchise. Sure we get some great characters like the Ginyu Force, but other than that it's basically just watching Krillin and Gohan helplessly scurry around while Vegeta does all the fighting. And then the fight with Frieza itself is boring as fuck and drags on for too long, even in the manga form.
>>138802102
>dragon ball
>a light hearted adventure gag manga
>z
>powerlevel bullshit
i wonder why op
>>138803266
>Also the fact he planned for the manga to end at the end of dragon ball.
Why do people keep trying to spread false bullshit like this? Toriyama never had a plan for when to end the series, he never had a plan past like 2-3 chapters ahead of what was coming out. Also, splitting it by Dragonball/z is pleb as fuck because the whole King Piccolo arc is basically the same as Z, if you're going to split it based on tone it has to be before Piccolo.
>>138803171
honestly I dont know why anyone would sit through the stand shit. It was better without it.
Because Akira Toriyama realized he could make a lot of money appealing to teeenage males.
>>138804731
yeah you are right, I should have fact checked, seems the only time he had even considered an ending was with the original collecting the dragon balls thing, which quickly was discarded.
>>138802200
Double dubs confirm.
Dragon ball is actually one of the saddest stories in manga: as readers we get to see a talented artist try his hand at unfamiliar genres, find great success, then slowly lose his creativity as the ending of the series is pushed further and further back by merchandising companies, ruthless editors, and brainless fans that just wanted more regardless of quality. Eventually, incredible amounts of cynicism worked its way into a children's series, and entire cast wipeouts became the order of the day.
This transition is even highlighted in Goku himself; there is no way anyone who isn't a blind fanboy can think that the Goku we saw at the 3rd tournament is the same person as the selfish, autistic asshole in Cell through Super.
>>138803363
This, so much. The setting is boring, Recoome is just Nappa 2.0, and the fight with Freeza is one transformation and about 20 chapters too long. It also highlights how poor Toriyama is at planning ahead, with over half of the cast either dead or so far away from the action they can't even provide color commentary--wouldn't a few chapters of a psychic battle between Chiaotzu and Guldo been more interesting than more chapters of Gohan and Krillin getting destroyed? .
Worse yet though is the Freeza saga reinforced the power level concept Radtiz introduced, bringing in countless spergs who never shut the fuck up about them even when Toriyama said they were a crippling mistake.
>>138805298
>Worse yet though is the Freeza saga reinforced the power level concept Radtiz introduced, bringing in countless spergs who never shut the fuck up about them even when Toriyama said they were a crippling mistake.
If you think that not having power levels would prevent power level spergs then you're sorely mistaken. It's just the nature of battle shounen for people to argue over who's stronger.
>>138805441
Oh no, I wholly agree they were there already. The thing is now they had the series had presented them with the philosopher's stone of autism: numbers.
That alone ruined any hope of the series getting back on track to skill-over-might battles, and as a result the choreography degraded to beam wars and power-up chapters.
>>138805298
>selfish, autistic asshole
That was Goku to a tee in early Dragonball though. Hell, it's part of what makes his character so appealing is that he's a dumb little selfish goofball.
>>138805518
That change was happening regardless of whether numbers were introduced or not.
>>138805298
>the fight with Freeza is one transformation and about 20 chapters too long.
Agreed it went a little long but that would be cutting way too much. The entire fight was only like 30 chapters and that includes all the shit with Gohan/Krillin and all the wishes.
>>138805627
Pretty sure saiyan saga wouldn't tell his son he's worthless for not being strong. Goku's downward character arc reflects his fans: dumb, and only concerned with fighting.
>>138805656
30 chapters is over half a fucking year, including holiday breaks. Fuck that retarded pacing.
>>138805837
Oh I definitely agree it was too long, but I wouldn't cut 2/3rds of it.
>>138805876
Cut chit-chat and have him go to his second stage right away, and skip the xenomorph queen form. When he said he could increase his power further after being shut down by Piccolo, just have him get stronger in his second form. Same effect, same tension, and two chapters at max.
>>138805967
Thats what I was thinking too. I could do without a lot of the Krillin/Gohan running around to drag out waiting for Goku too. Ideally for me it would be around 18-20 chapters if you want to keep the same general plot for everything.
>>138806056
If we're going full retard into fanfiction mode, have Tien be the one to stall the second form before Piccolo shows up, and have him mention to Goku that Freeza's biggest weakness is that he's ki blind.
Also, instead of getting a fuckhuge zenkai (and giving spergs more numbers), have Vegeta get a decent boost from Krillin and grow his tail back. That puts him at his very best, the strongest form we've seen of the species, and makes it all the more clear that he wasn't anyone special when Freeza takes an ozaru-sized galick gun to the face without flinching.
>>138803266
>This. Also the fact he planned for the manga to end at the end of dragon ball.
He wouldn't have went through the trouble of planning that Goku was an alien and then never explored it at all if he intended for it to end at DB
Either he didn't have time/funding to explore the saiyan aspect in DB or he intended for it to continue into a new series at some point.
>>138806255
That sounds like it would be even longer though, the whole point was that the fight was too long.
This is why I enjoyed the early GT series. Too bad it isn't canon
>>138806349
Not necessarily; by Tien stalling I mean have that take up the space used for shit-talking vegeta in Freeza's first form. If that's not enough, truncate the middle section of the fight where Freeza wants to play games. It doesn't add any tension when the point that he's on another level has been well established already.
As for ozaru vegeta, that can easily fit into the same amount of chapters as before if he changes right away.
There is no difference. Raditz's introduction isn't a bigger turning point than Krillin's death, or Taopaipai, or even Namu. Other than trying to fit in with hipsters on the Internet there is no reason to divide the manga where Toei did.
>>138806523
How is nam anywhere close to being as edgy as the MC's long lost evil brother?
>>138806562
His village is suffering a drought and will die if he doesn't win the tournament. Roshi literally says "this guy isn't from a gag manga." The jump from Roshi's silly training to Namu's serious backstory is way bigger than the jump from Piccolo trying to kill everyone to Raditz trying to kill everyone.
>>138806523
Krillin's death is the biggest one, everything to do with Piccolo is way more similar to Z than the stuff that happened during or before that tournament.
>>138806849
Which would be absolutely fine it it was a one tim thing.
>>138806702
>Guy whose village is in need but whose problem is solved very quickly is just as edgy as a man whose wiped out whole civilizations and tells his younger brother to kill hundreds or his son dies
Either pic related or another spic. Either way reported for trying too hard.
>>138802102
It's a sign of the times. Toriyama was coming fresh off of Dr. slump, a slice of life comedy about a weird world where animals, aliens and humans coexist. Dragonball is slightly more grounded than that but still plenty ridiculous. Over time, however, Goku's strength wanes from "stronger than everyone" to just "really strong". The theme of getting stronger and stronger becomes more prevalent. Eventually things start taking themselves more seriously. Then right at Piccolo Saga we have Krillin's death. I feel like from that point on is when dragonball starts to really take itself more seriously.
Keeping in mind the time the manga was made, big muscular tough guys were all the rage in the mid 80s/early 90s, so of course Dragonball followed suit. By the time the android saga hits, Dragonball has completely taken itself seriously, only to get back to its roots during the Buu saga.
>>138807235
The edgiest villain was Piccolo "I've created a holiday where I kill 1/43'rd of the Earth's population" Daimao, who was before Raditz.
>>138807495
That's just so over the top and "evil" it's just hilarious though.
Saying that filler isn't canon is like saying that shit that only happened in the Harry Potter movies, but not the books isn't canon. They should be treated as seperate
>>138807554
When a demon commits genocide it's funny, but when a space monkey man does it it's edgy?
Dragonball felt more like an adventure and I like it more because of that, haven't seen Z in ages though.
Anyone else get the feeling that despite Buu being 10x more powerful than Cell, and even though he actually managed to blow up the Earth, it felt like overall they were in less danger and the stakes were lower?
>>138806849
I think the 22nd Budokai is much more like everything after it than everything before it.
Actually, considering this separation of DB and Z, the atmosphere of the Z saga started to appear in the last tournament, when goku beats piccolo jr. Than, after the radditz part Dragon Ball develop more to a battle shounen with less jokes, but this jokes returned in the boo saga, as it's lighter than the Vegeta, Freeza and Cell sagas.
>>138807720
I never got that feeling, but the characters definitely acted like it. Vegeta/Goku/Gohan seemed to be confident enough that everything would work out. The thing about Cell is that he sat around waiting for the cell games instead of just killing people because he wanted a good fight, where as Buu spends the entire arc (minus 5 minutes where he was friends with Hercule) killing people for pure fun. His extinction attack was pretty brutal.
>>138808212
I think it's because by that time almost everyone's died before, and everyone's just vividly aware of the fact that they have 2 sets of dragonballs now. Like, all they need is someone compotent enough to gather the dragonballs to bring back the dead. Or if the earth is gone, just get the namekians to bring back the earth, and then use the earth dragonballs to bring back the dead. They're not worried for the same reason you don't quit when you die for the first time in mario.
>>138808505
Not only this, but I think after Cell the saiyans started to think there wasn't really anything that could challenge them anymore besides each other. Look at how they react when they first go on Babidi's ship, even after Krillin/Piccolo were turned to stone they spent the entire time fucking around.
>>138808812
Buu Saga Goku was great. After going through so much shit and being dead for 7 years he really didn't give a fuck anymore.
>>138803314
OMG someone finally figure it out
>>138802102
it's not. the Budokai Tenkaichi tournaments started in Dragonball, as did the Piccolo arcs. Both of which were similar to the arcs that would come later. It wasn't a big WHOA NOW IT"S DBZ switch to anyone who isn't a stupid american who thought shit started with DBZ because they never saw the earlier stuff.
I mean yeah the series changes, but all series change. I can't wait to have arguments with people who think the timeskip was the magical point where Naruto started sucking, as if the signs weren't already there. Or even further in the future, we'll be talking about One Piece in that regard.
>>138804833
part 1 is unremarkable in every way, there are a dozen equally campy, poorly-drawn, overly macho series from the same time period.
part 2 is a crazy ride, but there's not even an attempt at depth or consistency to it. it's a short romp but that's it.
anime-first-fags need to die. the first 2 years of a 27+year series should not be considered the defining moments.the same goes for Dragonball
Oh great, THIS topic again
The original Dragon Ball had serious parts (Taopaipai, the indian kids dad dying, all of Piccolo and Piccolo Jr.), and even had the same power creep bullshit. Remember Goku drinking that holy water shit to power himself up? That's just the old-school equivalent of a zenkai boost or a new form. Dragon Ball Z also had a lot of gag parts - big chunks of the Buu saga, anything involving the Saiyaman, a lot of the characters in the afterlife, and so on.
Dragon Ball changed gradually. There is no /giant/ difference between Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z - most of the things people complain about in Z were already there in full force by the halfway point of the original Dragon Ball. Turn off the Faulconer soundtrack and read the goddamn fucking manga and you'd realize that the 'change' in Dragon Ball happened the second Goku and Krillin started training with Roshi
>>138809662
the restoration of Jojo on /a/ is just a pipe dream at this point
>>138809662
It's the same problem with a lot of series. People still complain about Bleach not being SoL ghostbusters anymore when it hasn't been that in over 600 chapters.
>>138810032
I agree with the sentiment, but disagree at the same time.
>The original Dragonball had serious parts
Emphasis on parts. The Tao Pai Pai fight was accented by Tao becoming a sniveling punk once Goku thrashed him, Upa's dad dying was pretty intense but mostly just a means to an end, Piccolo Daimao was by far the most serious pre/Gohan Dragonball and even then it had a some levity in Yajirobe. But that arc is definitely where the tone shifts for the more serious and it never really goes back until the Buu saga.
I'd say, while Dragonball is all just one manga, the Gohan part has a very distinctive feel. And I credit it to two things.
1. Letting the characters grow into adults
2. Introducing the concept of aliens.
For some reason the later parts of Dragonball decided to forgo a lot of the whimsy and explain a lot of stuff for now reason. Put everything into little boxes. (saiyans have monkey tails and it is due to a chemical reaction in the moon that makes them giant, Goku and Piccolo are aliens and that's why they're so strong, Goku got stronger so often as a kid because he had an ability that boosts his power two-fold whenever he comes back from near death.) There just seems to be less nuance and whimsy in it for a while...until we get back to the Buu saga, which is basically getting back to basics.
>>138810868
You're just emphasizing the silly parts before Raditz and ignoring the ones afterwards. Right after Raditz's death Goku goes to the afterlife and learns martial arts by chasing around a monkey named Bubbles. Meanwhile, the Red Ribbon saga has stuff like White shooting Goku in the back and planning to murder an entire village even after they met his demands. There might be a slight trend towards more seriousness overall, but it's hard to notice from the constant zigzagging.
>>138811732
Oh, I agree. Dragonball has a lot of lighthearted stuff throughout. I'm just saying the scale is difference.
Early on it's lighthearted with some serious moments to punctuate it.
Later on it's serious with lighthearted moments to punctuate it.
And then buu saga happens which mixes the two.
