If you are capable, please contain the usual futile rage and shit flinging about this subject, and, using only reason and logic, refute the following argument:
In Fate Zero, each resolution has more weight to it. After each battle, characters win or lose in ways consistent with their character and preceding events. In F/sn, events are inconsistent and contrived, and apparently tailor-made to serve the development of the primary characters.
It cannot be helped when it's a VN adaption.
>>134454168
Both series focused on the development of different characters, they are different stories after all. Does that make one a better or worse story? Maybe, if you like one is the other for you? Not necessarily.
It's all contrived, so there's no use refuting it.
>>134454168
Logically, this argument is shit because there is no evidence presented to support it. I'll refute:
In F/SN, each resolution has more weight to it. After each battle, characters win or lose in ways consistent with their character and preceding events. In Fate Zero, events are inconsistent and contrived, and apparently tailor-made to serve the development of the primary characters.
>>134454168
>In F/sn, events are inconsistent and contrived
Examples?
>>134454363
Caster's mana-generation has real consequences. Contrast with Caster generating mana only to serve the plot with no real repercussions in the other plotlines.
>>134454363
Rider's final charge is the emotional climax of the arc. We know it's futile, but we are drawn in to the moment.
Compare with the final charge of Rider. It's totally useless and serves only to buff the reputation of the final antagonist. What's the point of Noble Phantasms when they're all weak vs plot armor?
What route are we talking
In F/sn Nasu didn't know what the fuck he was doing. In Zero, someone else must have told him.
>>134454398
There's a logical reason for that though.
>>134454493
There's nothing wrong with Rider using her NP to try to beat Saber. I mean, what else do you want her to do? She wanted to end Saber and Bellerophron was the best way to do it. And, hey, if she could hit Shinji with it, why not?
>>134454363
Kotomine's betrayal is both shocking and elaborately foreshadowed. This kind of attention to detail is what makes the narrative great.
On the other hand, Kotomine's betrayal is an embarrassment to the reader and the writer. They both saw this coming but neither of them can explain why. The betrayers actions are explicitly counterindicated by their behavior before and after the reveal.
>>134454363
There's just so many...
Rin/Shirou/Saber vs Berserker/Illya in fate route comes to mind. Or all those other fights that played out by the following formula:
>No, Shirou! That's impossible! If you attempt that, you will surely fail and die!
>He does it, and is basically fine a day or two later.
This happens at least 4 times in Fate route. At least.
>>134454614
Nasu wrote most of Zero though and contributed a ton of the concepts there.
It doesn't help that the original game was meant to have 4 routes and HF is just an mashup of whatever was left.
>>134454168
>secondaries: the post
>>134454346
>In Fate Zero, events are inconsistent and contrived, and apparently tailor-made to serve the development of the primary characters.
Not really. Sure Kiristsugu and Kotomine still had more focus being primary characters but others had good coverage of their principles, motivations and learning during the 4th HGW, most fell truly like protagonists of their own stories who crossed their path with the other heroes. Also they felt more, well, heroic (yes, even Gilgamesh). F/SN did had some coverage of the secondary parties but it was minimal and felt like a background just for the sake of making Shirou's victories more impressive. Iskandar's motivation didn't dissapeared after losing to Saber and went to conclude his arc wonderfully on his last march against Gil.
>>134454635
Okay, we get it. Fate route is garbage.
>>134454635
That's cause of "Avalon lol".
>>134454635
There's a reason for that.
>>134454346
>That's not fair! I can do the same thing to you, see?
This is not a good refutation. Granted, I also lack the skills and/or intelligence to refute you as thoroughly as I'd like, but I think most people can look at those two arguments and see that one carries significantly more weight than the other.
>>134454648
90% of the "concept" might come from Type-Moon, but that's very different from the execution. Urobuchi did not write the novels based on any fixed outline or even a summary of major events. Instead he created most of the actual story himself based on the rough boundaries of what the story would have to be about. Nasu acknowledges him as a very good writer, which is why they wanted him to do Fate/Zero in the first place. It would be pointless if all he contributed was rewriting something which already existed.
>>134454631
You know that applies for both, right?
Kotomine's build-up is better in Zero mainly because you already know that from the original FSN. That was the whole point of his character arc i. zero where he didn't need nor was allowed the same focus in the novel.
That's like asking why was Sakura written so much better in HF compared to Fate or UBW.
>>134454493
>>134454398
>>134454805
>You know that applies for both, right?
>>134454662
>Garbage
I like the concept of it, and in one or two scenes this shines through. But it collapses in all other aspects, and takes so god damned long to read...
>>134454493
>final charge of Rider
Which one? Fate? Or HF? If Fate then that's not her "final charge" in F/SN even if it is for that route. Heaven's Feel may be her final charge in F/SN but isn't the end of her character arc, which is concluded in F/HA.
It simply comes down to F/SN's characters have their development spread out across the 3 routes as well as F/HA. They're given a lot more screen time and aren't forced to have their resolution in every route. Every servant from the 5th HGW has a "final fight" for their character arc at some stage during either F/SN or F/HA.
>>134454168
What was inconsistent about the way FSN characters handled things?
You're not even presenting examples. Like, do you think Archer losing his fight against Shirou is inconsistent? What?
>>134454847
The route itself is just a little lackluster and is less thrilling than the two after it, but I can't think of any scene the vn that made me come closer to tearing up than last episode.
>>134454725
The analysis in the pic is jaundiced.
Kayneth never respected Rinsei, because the Church and the Association are literal mortal enemies. Killing one by the other isn't underhanded, it's business. Rules-lawyering is how Kayneth and everyone else gains power in magic and in the association. Kiritsugu binding with the geass isn't mechanical ruthlessness. The fact that Kayneth is sentimental for Sola-Ui is weakness, it's his ultimate downfall, not because he's faced with an implacable opponent but because he's a mage and all mages have to sacrifice to get ahead.
None of this is development; everyone ends right where they started.
>>134454955
Didn't archer lost on purpose?
>>134455065
He lost because he realized Shirou was right, and that he didn't have a reason to fight anymore. He agreed with what Shirou was telling him now.
>>134455065
Well yeah, their whole fight is simply a platform to illustrate their clash of ideology. It's much more entertaining showing it as a sword fight than as a shouting match. Archer admits that Shirou's views were right and concedes the argument.
>>134455055
>Kayneth never respected Rinsei, because the Church and the Association are literal mortal enemies. Killing one by the other isn't underhanded, it's business. Rules-lawyering is how Kayneth and everyone else gains power in magic and in the association.
Hmm. Interesting, and canonically supported. Yet at the same time, you can't imagine Tohsaka using such shameless tactics. His approach to magical jewry was contrasting in a way that's consistent with the jpgs depiction of Kayneth's actions. How do you explain this?
>>134455234
Tohsaka is a hedge wizard who lucked into a position in this Grail War by virtue of the Einzberns and Makiri deliberately seeking the most backwater ley lines. He's not a player in the Association, and every member of the Association is liable to treat him as a a foreign monkey. See Luvia's treatment of Rin.
Tohsaka is an explicit characterization of Japanese isolationism. We see where it got him.
>>134455339
Further evidence of Tohsaka non-representativeness can be seen in the fact that Zelretch, literal trickster god, takes a liking to them.
>>134455339
Luvia's treatment if Rin stems from the shit the Tohsakas pulled with the Edelfelts during the third war.
The Edelfelts cover it up as thinking the Tohsakas killed one of their heirs and took their crest, but in actuality, given the fact that Rin is 1/4th Finnish, it's heavily alluded to one of the Edelfelts eloping with Grandpa Tohsaka.
>>134454725
>>134455339
>>134455404
The only reason that the elopement is a scandal is because Tohsaka is a foreign monkey not worthy to spill his seed in an Edelfelt. If Tohsaka were a legit member of the Association, the claims about crest theft would have been adjudicated and settled within a generation. My point stands.
Someone can clarify some things about UBW for an anime pleb who didn't read the VNs?
How Archer helped in the last battle if he was dead?
What's Shirou and Rin relationship at the ending? It's all so ambiguous and hard to tell what happened and what is just fanservice.
>>134455458
Why are you quoting me and this garbage together?
>>134455524
>What's Shirou and Rin relationship at the ending? It's all so ambiguous and hard to tell what happened and what is just fanservice.
I'm not sure how it's terribly ambiguous. Pic related is the cover for episode 25's script.
Rin and Shirou are actively dating, they're going to continue their relationship, but Shirou is not joining the Clock Tower because it wouldn't further his goals. He's going to become a Hero of Justice and go farther than Archer could, with Rin by his side.
>>134455593
It looks like they are in a relationship but on other hand, it doesn't. They act like a couple in front of others but don't show signs of being in love.
>>134455524
Im guessing he just turned to spirit form to preserve the little mana he got left after being GoB and relied on indepedant action to pull a clutch incase they needed his help
>>134455530
Too see if you can refute it, obviously
>>134455632
In the epilogue they straight up went on a date, and in this scene they're alone together with Rin sitting in his lap, and getting jealous about Luvia.
It's pretty blatant.
The F/Z anime is the worst thing that has ever happened to anything TM related. Shitposting has increased 100 times ever since it came out.
>>134455711
Yeah but even then again they act like that because they are in front of the audience, they are just pretending
>>134455725
I mean this only semi ironically. Normies kinda ruined it.
No like, really. You look at those "top anime for beginners" charts or whatever, and you'll find Zero on there. It's on Netflix, the English dub isn't bad, it's "dark", "mature", and whatever buzzword you wanna have.
I do like Zero, but when you see people from like, /tv/ recommending it, it's probably not the best sign of what kind of fans it brings in.
>>134455777
They're alone in that scene though.
I'm confused, are you trying to start some shipping shit or whatever? Cause I'm not doing any of that bullshit, I'm just telling you what happened. She begged him to go to London with her, they're living in the same apartment, they're dating.
>>134455836
No dude, we were watching them. They know.
>>134455867
Oh. Okay.
>>134455458
>>134455699
The pacing argument is not unique to Zero. The same technique is used to buff Kuzuki, True Assassin, and Sakura.
A Master rubbing a Servant's nose in the fact that "the Grail War isn't like your foolish honor party" is the entirety of Cu Chulainn's arc. Zero's is just a knock-off.
Re: Lancer's death sequence, all I can say is BATTLE CONTINUATION.
I prefer Fate/Zero because it really felt like a serious war and not atmosphere breaking like school shit.
>>134456081
Remember that time a bunch of servants got together to drink beer and shoot the shit?
What about when Alexander the Great went and bought some video games?
>>134454725
>>134454725
Who the fuck is "Rinsei"?
They are two completely different series, Zero was more action orientated with flashback episodes to show character development, while F/SN shown character development during the battles, so battles had to be tailor-made i.e ascalon.
The series are completely different in nature so different storytelling methods had to be used,
>>134456123
Mistype of Risei, the elder Kotomine.
>>134456174
>Zero was more action orientated
I would no agree with that statement. Zero has a lot less action than people remember.
>>134456218
What I meant by that was in contrast with F/SN battles, there was more action due to less character-development shilled
>>134456114
>What about when Alexander the Great went and bought some video games?
I also thought that Iskander was handled a too cartoony at times, and that this detracted from his character. By the same token, Waver was too much of a prissy bitch at times. It made him less likeable.
>>134456249
I actually still disagree with that. Like, just in terms of fights, what is really the earliest? The shipyard battle? I think that's in episode four.
Think of it as a whole and not a fight v fight battle,
>>134456256
>>134456256
Iskandar's character came across to me as completely comedic, which wasn't a bad thing. I actually liked how his overbearing physical appearance and initial intimidating summoning scene was juxtaposed by "I'm the best friend you'll ever have! And then some." scenes. His characterization as a king without the author blatantly powerwanking him, see Gil and brown Gil, and instead having his actions complement his backstory was very refreshing. His charisma granted him followers which in turn granted him strength.
Not to say that I don't like how Gil and brown Gil are portrayed. I just prefer characters that have defining personalities instead of being defined by powerlevels.
>>134456114
>Remember that time a bunch of servants got together to drink beer and shoot the shit?
Wine, not beer.They're kings and deserve the best booze, not filthy mongrel's.
>>134456256
That's the point of his character, and in accord of his view of what a true king should be. Everything he does is in excess.
Waver being a little bitch is also the point. His relationship with Iskandar changed him, at the start he is a little prick full of himself stuck on his "I'm the master, you're the servant". By the end he shows complete loyalty to him and chose Iskandar as his one king, and end up worthy enough to be among the army of heroes.
>>134456661
>Iskandar's character came across to me as completely comedic
Hmm... It's not that I don't think comedy would add to his character. But the Japanese have a much more slapstick-oriented sense of humor, I think. And apart from that, I think Iskandar's defining moments were non comedic
Off the top of my head,
>Iskandar confronts Artoria
>Iskandar argues with Gil about Artoria
>Iskandar and Waver raid Caster's lair
>Iskandar vs Gil
>Iskandar advises Waver to come clean to his grandparents
>Iskandar takes Waver with him after being released as a servant
>>134456699
>That's the point of his character, and in accord of his view of what a true king should be. Everything he does is in excess.
Particularly, and as an example, this scene. It felt out of place, and didn't add anything to his character that couldn't have been handled in a more tonally and contextually consistent way.
>Oh, right! I need pants! So, if I win this next battle, you'll allow me to buy a pair of pants?
>Waver being a little bitch is also the point.
I'm aware of that. But what I'm saying is that I would have preferred it to have been done more subtly, more along the lines of how a real college student would behave. A personal preference.
>>134456777
To be honest, Waver is not that far off from some college students I've met.
>>134456803
His over-the-top, childish tsun behavior would be appropriate for tweens, to my reckoning.
>>134456885
The tsun is maybe a little anime, but college isn't some magic switch where suddenly you start acting like an adult. I think Waver was 18 or 19? Definitely still a teenager.
>Iskander wasn't all grimdark all the time, and that was bad
This is the sort of shit I hate about Zero secondaries. They take the whole series, the whole setting way too seriously. Pretty much from the start, at the very least from the release of Tsukihime, Nasu knew that his whole setting was very dark and could use a break in tone every so often to be a little light-hearted. That's how we got things like the Ciel-Sensei and Taiga Dojo corners, Melty's joke routes, and the fandisks. Hell, I even remember some pretty blatant comic relief as far back as Notes. (Her guitar wasn't even tuned!)
You don't need to take this shit seriously all the time, and somehow Zerofags seem to have missed that memo.
>>134456990
I think some folks have a bit of selective memory about Zero.
Reminder to everyone, it still has an entire episode dedicate to a loli trying to play detective.
>>134456661
He's lighthearted but he's not comedic, basically he would be what if Shirou could be if he had any kind of charisma and wasn't a complete wet blanket of a character: a determinate redhead who wanted to make people cooperate and had an impossible dream.
That's why he is one of Nasu's characters to the point he feels intimidated to write him after Gen's portrayal.
>>134456256
>I also thought that Iskander was handled a too cartoony at times, and that this detracted from his character.
Gil is worse than Iskandar in this, so is Arturia WAAH I LOVE PLUSHIES.
>>134457065
>comparing Shirou to greek Hitler
>>134457162
I know I'm insulting Alexander the Great in comparing him with a shitty self insert character. But for the sake of the story role, it fits.
>>134457212
>>134454168
Name a single inconsistency in F/SN.
>>134457242
Rin is clearly the best girl, but Saber beats her in popularity.
smdh Nasu.
>>134454168
>Urobotchi is a better writer than Nasu
Call the presses!
And no, being better than a VN creator doesn't make you good.
>>134457272
Nasu wrote Kara no Kyoukai before any of his VNs, though
>>134454168
Are you arguing that Fate/SN is badly written shit? I can't refute this.
>>134457362
You can't refute a guy who's not even presenting any points for his argument.
>>134457383
If you lack reading comprehension this may be the case.
He is basically saying everything in F/SN is bending for Shirou to succeed which is true. All points focus on a single point which is bad writing and makes the war look way smaller than it should be.
In Zero we have many perspectives and the war actually feels big and huge in scale since it doesn't have any restrictions like everyone needing to interact with the main character who bends the story.
>>134457489
We get a ton of perspectives that are not Shirou in F/SN.
Secondaries, amirite?
>>134457489
There are literally 46 endings where Shirou either dies, or something terrible happens to him, and in each and every route he struggles and faces challenges that either harden him, or make him change.
Your point though seems to be a criticism of stories with centralized characters in general though.Which is something I'm not even sure what to say able. Ensemble casts are not inherently superior.
>>134457489
Which is why Shirou ends up dead in most endings, including one of the main route endings.
Ok OP simply put it is because F/SN was created as a visual novel and was about getting a girl, the rest was fun but it was side stuff. By the time F/Z came along, 1. Nasu was more experienced, 2. it was created for a totally different media and thus presented more development for each character in a single series rather than 3 separate arcs.
>Second best Rider is pic related (in my humble opinion)
>>134457521
>le secondaries bandwagon meme
>>134457541
>>134457547
Non canon, it doesn't matter. All the characters are forced to interact with Shirou, All points of the war focus on a single one. Death scenes would be only relevant if he could travel back in time.
>>134457666
>Non canon
Yeah, you are a secondary.
>>134457666
>Non canon
You don't know how this works. They're all canon. Even if you want to go by the "main" endings, Shirou still dies in one.
Again though, your driving criticism simply seems to be that there is a protagonist. Yes, you do follow Shirou and see most things from his perspective. There is nothing wrong with this. You may not like it, but from a narrative perspective, it's not a fault.
>>134457666
>Non canon
you what
Zelretch could literally stroll right in to the end where Saber cut his fucking head off and Kotomine summons angry manju, it's completely canon.
Easy thing.
F/KL>F/Z>>>F/UB>>>>>F/SN
>>134457666
But he's right. Off the top of my head there's scenes from Saber, Rin, Archer, Sakura, Zouken, and Kotomine's perspectives, and I'm pretty sure there's more that I'm forgetting.
>>134457824
There's a brief one from Shinji's perspective at least.
Where he runs headlong into Berserker and gets squished.
>>134457824
Shinji.
>>134457706
They're optional. They don't affect anything of the story. Might as well cut all the bullshit and say he just got extremely lucky, it's bad writing either way.
>>134457740
That you follow his perspective doesn't make it bad. That you follow his perspective and every character is forced to interact with Shirou because of that is bad writing. You can't have everything.
>>134457824
>>134457842
>>134457855
Oh, and there's Lancer vs. True Assassin too. I forgot that one.
>>134454237
/thread
It's just an eroge. What were people expecting? Such an awful platform will always be limited.
>>134457868
>They don't affect anything of the story.
It's an integrated work. The story is the sum of every text in the game. If you don't get all the Tiger Dojos, you don't get the whole story.
>>134457868
But every character isn't forced to interact with Shirou. There are characters who barely interact with him in certain routes. It's one of the benefits of having a branching narrative, you don't have to cram the entire cast into one story.
Example, Caster in Fate. Hardly even makes an appearance, and barely interacts with Shirou. Another, Kirei in UBW. Meets Shirou I think once? At the mandatory scene where you meet him at the beginning. And hell, most of the servants die off screen in HF, with Shirou never meeting them.
And I entirely disagree with you on the bad ends. VNs are a different story telling medium. They allow for branching paths. UBW and HF are technically "optional" at the start, as you have a credits sequence at the end of Fate, but no sensible person would think the story's done with that.
>>134457868
>They're optional
The main story is optional too. So suddenly we're left without a canon?
>They don't affect anything of the story
Excepting their own stories..? And expanding the universe with some key insights and details?
>Might as well cut all the bullshit and say he just got extremely lucky, it's bad writing either way.
It's more circumstance than luck. The decision that proceeds to a good end is just as important as the decision that leads to a bad end. It's not "luck" that Shirou does X action over Y action, it's the player's decision.
Saying the character's circumstances affect their fate is in no way bad writing.
>>134457936
But anonymous, a VN is intrinsically a superior format of media to animation.
Just because the author isn't good doesn't mean the format is in any way a negative.
VNs have dedicated music and interaction to create tone and atmosphere. The ambiance and possibility for immersion are significantly greater, in addition to having (the potential for) just as much eloquence and imagery as literature.
>>134457980
>The main story is optional too. So suddenly we're left without a canon
So that is how arguing with a typemoon faggot feels like. A bad ending is giving the story so much depth. It shows how Shirou could have died if he didn't do everything right. Next time I play video games and die I will just call it quits and accept it as the canon story.
Fate Zero was about a billion times more interesting than Fate Stay/Night and Unlimited Blade Works.
>>134458040
Yes.
Unironically, Sparks Liner High has as much development for the characters as HF Normal End, and more than UBW Good End, which progresses nothing.
There are even games where the player giving up is woven into the plotline and setting. (Dark Souls, Undertale)
>>134458040
If each time you died in a video game, you got a piece of story that expanded on that death and what happened, you might end up interested in dying a whole lot more to see those.
The bad ends add to a plot.
>>134458023
You probably have the potential to become a millionaire but you will die a hopeless loser anyway. The VN library still consists 99% of nukige.
>>134458049
I too watched Fate/Zero on Netflix with the English dub. Matt Mercer's Kiritsugu is so badass.
How old were you when you realized the Carnival Phantasm is an actually object/entity/ability like a Marble Phantasm or Noble Phantasm that causes the world to collide and things to be come funny and isn't just a random Type-Moon sounding name?
>>134458097
>The VN library still consists 99% of nukige.
If you consider everything with H-scenes a nukige, then maybe.
>>134458097
Whether you died a hopeless loser or surrounded by material wealth, or loved or unloved, doesn't matter when you're dead.
>>134458120
Holy shit
>>134458146
Millionaires don't die, even if you kill them.
>>134458120
Doesn't Neco-Arc Chaos say exactly that at the beginning of the first episode?
>>134458124
The vast majority are doujin works. Only a very small percentage come from actual studios and then most of those are trash anyway.
>>134458146
Tips fedora. Might as well kill yourself now because nothing will matter anyway.
>people that read translations
>calling anyone else secondary
Every fucking time.
>>134458341
>Implying you actually read it in Japanese and aren't just looking for an excuse to shitpost
>>134458353
>secondaryfag giving me lip
Know your place, trash. Read your awful translation once more.
>>134458392
Literally a textbook response to an ego being wounded by truth. Blowing more hot air to try and sound superior.
>>134458504
So that's how butthurt someone is who calls other people secondaries when confronted with the true master race.
>>134458595
You're hilariously pathetic. Like a wiener dog barking at passing cars.
>>134458673
Don't you think you're taking this exchange a little too seriously, senpai? Translations, even professional translations, are notoriously inferior to the (cough) original language that the works were written in.