You know exactly what I mean
>>143133693
>You know exactly what I mean
No I don't.
Do you mean I thought they were good before watching them or do you mean I still think they're good despite not being able to enjoy them?
Monogatari
>>143133693
To some degree I agree with you about that anime.
I did find it enjoyable much of the time, though, but it was the last winter season anime I finished.
Usually, if I find something to be too painful to watch, it can be hard to judge it at all. For example, I've heard Hourou Musuko is pretty good, and I've also watched it myself. And while watching it, I also got a feeling that it was pretty good, perhaps. But it was simply so painful, every minute was suffering, so while it might have been good, I can't really say it's good.
I enjoyed Rakugou but I had a little trouble with the pacing until I realised you're not supposed to marathon it.
>>143133761
both meanings
I appreciated that rakugo was good, but I just couldn't get into it
>>143133693
So anime that we think are objectively good, but subjectively didn't like?
>>143133874
yep
>>143133693
Sayonara Zetsubo Sensei, I liked the visual style, but I felt like I was missing half of the jokes for not being japanese, so I just watched all the openings and endings on youtube and called it a day.
>>143133693
Not really, I enjoyed the fuck out of Rakugo.
>>143133693
I think Rakugo just lacks appeal in general. Despite it being by far the best winter anime very few people have seen it. The characterization is very solid but the narrative is just too simple.
>>143133693
How does that even work?
How do you think that anime is good without enjoying it?
Are you like
> oh, objectively
Doesn't make sense to me.
>>143133693
the best part of this was the rakugo, otherwise it was a mediocre sol with terrible pacing
>>143134235
>hurr durr personal enjoyment = quality
If and when you acquire good taste you will understand.
>>143133693
If you don't like it, then it's not good. There's no "Muh objective" point of view here, this is not math, everything depends on your taste.
>>143134291
>sol
It wasn't an sol at any point, it was a character/period drama.
It was impressive, "enjoy" is definitely not the word.
>>143134235
Have you ever watched a movie that you knew was good but bored you out of your mind?
>>143134235
I get his point, to put it in perspective, a person who likes jazz will probably consider classical music to be good, but wouldn't find any personal enjoyment from listening to it.
>>143133761
I think its simple. Does anyone enjoy suffering shows that kill you inside, like fafner? No, but I still watch it and sing its praises. It's enjoyable but not in a haha happy kind of way.
Darker than Black bored the shit out of me but I see the appeal.Still over rated though.
>>143134320
"I'm sorry Gordon Ramsay, you can't say my cooking is bad even though I literally pooped in it, because taste is subjective"
The main character was just really obnoxious as a child and I couldn't get past it.
>>143134463
Is that analogy supposed to make sense?
>>143134463
>entertainment=food
Try again.
>>143134463
Yes, that's how it works.
There's not enough critical influence in anime to sway me like that. Like there's no canon for me to assume greatness of. Solaris for example is a movie I hated but still call good, but when I dislike something like Ghost in the Shell I'm just convinced it's no good.
>>143134492
Did you enjoy the slap at least?
>>143134317
>implying
tfw you objectively realize and analyze an anime for being good but doesn't enjoy it.
What are you, some kind of faggot?
Objective analyzation isn't an absolute. In fact, people misconstrue the word "objective" to it having the same meaning as "true", although it is not.
Having an objective viewpoint on a piece of art means that you stray away from using meaningless buzzwords and unspecific definitions, and instead of using something like, say:
> I enjoy the plot because it's fun
you say something like
> I enjoy the plot because it's detailed and subtle, with all the...
An objective judgement on art is simply using your thoughts in such a manner that you know WHY it's this or that. That's why a bad anime being enjoyable is understandable.
But if it's like
> I think it's good but I don't enjoy it
what the fuck does that mean? Is that what you call "pandering to elitist though so I don't get called out for my shit taste"?
It doesn't make sense that you think the anime is objectively bad but you don't enjoy it.
>>143134492
That movie hold the title for my pettiest drop ever. The pineapple scene told me that I could never like or relate to anyone in the film, and any hope of finishing the movie died for me after that scene.
>>143134492
I'd probably say this as well. I thought it was a good movie, but I will not watch it again.
Same with Millennium Actress, and Angel's Egg. I appreciate them but I didn't really enjoy them.
There isn't really any shows I didn't like that I didn't think were shit, just movies.
>>143134320
It is entirely possible to appreciate the effort that goes into making something even if it doesn't interest you as much as it would someone else.
![[YYDM-11FANS][Dennou Coil][11][BDRIP][720P][X264-10bit_AAC][1F282A92].mp4_snapshot_10.09_[2016.06.21_17.25.49].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/PzUXB8p.jpg "[YYDM-11FANS][Dennou Coil][11][BDRIP][720P][X264-10bit_AAC][1F282A92].mp4_snapshot_10.09_[2016.06.21_17.25.49].jpg")
When I think back on this show the narrative was really solid but the lack of tension and the slow pacing just made the episodes a chore to watch.
>>143134605
You're missing the production and visual element of the work. It's possible for a series to look and sound amazing, but still fail to capture my interest.
>>143133693
Casshern Sins and Jinrui wa Suitaishimashita
>>143134600
A little bit. Mostly I would wait for the flashback sections to be over so I could enjoy the "present day" segments of the movie.
I'll admit, the ending still got me a bit emotional.
>>143133693
>not enjoying homo shit
What are you? Some sort of non-gay?
>>143134706
The bromance aspect was great. The awful cunt ruining everything and the daughter growing up to be a slut was decidedly less-great.
>>143134368
I see what you mean but from a different perspective.
Some musical expert might say that "this music is good, with all the notes etc etc" but doesn't enjoy listening to it.
But I don't think it works like that for anime. There are no arbitrary "good" or "bad" for anime. The most complex, well thought-out anime can still be called bad for multitudes of reason.
I'll probably be fucked when I say this, but literature has far more depth in terms of what can be analyzed than music.
"Objectively good but subjectively bad" is something I will never understand in anime until I actually experience, if I ever.
>>143134625
I think with shows I tend to just drop them after I've hit a spell of episodes that I don't care for. With a movie I'll usually power through it.
>>143134616
Funny enough, the pineapple scene was the most relatable of the flashbacks for me. I thought the tension after everyone tried it for the first time was perfect.
Aria
Cowboy Bebop
Great Teacher Onizuka
Jin Roh
Ghost in the Shell
Perfect Blue
Honey & Clover
>>143134651
I suppose visuals is the most objective you can get in analyzing an anime.
I agree to that, at least.
Although if visuals and music is all an anime has, I don't think it would be "objectively good".
FLCL, Patlabor movie, Kaguya-hime, Cardcaptor Sakura, Kyousogiga
Most of the time I think they are good, but then I have no interest in continuing to watch after the first couple episodes.
>>143134502
I'm sorry you're not able to get it. It's really not that hard to understand
>>143134506
What is an analogy?
Let me rephrase that so you won't be a little semantic bitch about it
"I'm sorry Kubrick, you can't say my show is bad even though it's literally just 20 minutes of static".
And just in case you are still too dense to understand I'll spell it out for you guys.
While alot of someones enjoyment in entertainment is based on subjective taste, there is such a thing as certain objective measures by which to judge entertainment. You might not like a certain show for a multitude of reasons, but you can still acknowledge that it has some objective merits to it.
For instance, I personally didn't really care for Angel's Egg, because my subjective taste prefers another kind of narrative. But I can still see that it has some elements to it which are objectively (or at least universally regarded as) positive.
>>143134784
Texhnolyze and Lain did it for me, I hold them both in very high regard, but I did not enjoy watching either of them.
>>143134893
Waa I supposed to enjoy texhnolyze? I liked it but I'm not sure that enjoy is correct.
>>143133693
Bungou Stray Dogs, it's good but i'm not a fujo so can't be bothered
I still enjoyed it though, if you didn't enjoy it then it wasn't good
>>143134812
true that, the only movie I can remember ever dropping was There Will Be Blood. Fucking /tv/, that shit was boring. I don't care if it has excellent cinematography.
>>143134893
I don't think the term "enjoy" is something that's just compressed to having fun and smiling all over the place.
At least, I'm implying that's what you mean.
Things like tension and other stuff make it enjoyable in a different sense.
In other words, if you think that the anime you watched was well worth the time, it was probably enjoyable.
>>143134864
>Kaguya Hime
I agree, the visuals were amazing, but the story got boring once they got out of the forest.
I would have enjoyed the movie more if it was comfy adventures in the countryside, but I guess the original tale didn't allow for it.
>>143133693
I still have not finished Rakugo, stuck on ep7.I feel like I know how it will all go so its just waste of time.its good but not very engaging
>>143134987
>Bungou Stray Dogs
>Good
It's just a generic shitfest with some edgy characters.
>>143134630
Guess you're right, but then it's not the same as thinking the show was good.
>>143134349
That was when I first learned what Agalmatophilia was
>>143134886
Tell me those "objective measures".
Stop pretending to be someone who has a large understanding of how literature works. If you had an inkling as to how it did, then I assure you wouldn't be saying such things.
>>143134992
Must be different tastes, that movie captured my full attention instantly and kept it straight through to the end.
>>143135073
the first episode was good
>>143135042
Yo it gets really fucking good soon. Episode 9 and I think 10 are insanely satisfying. Please give it another try, and you have a whole second season to not know how it'll go.
>>143134605
>I'm a relativist because that means I could never be eating shit and the seasonal harem is of equal merit as Lain.
You are right. It's not like there are shows that have more compelling and internally sound narratives that are able to explore their themes more meaningfully than others. And it's not like time filters the things that remain relevant despite changing generations and technological improvements.
![joker-game_ryyr.1920[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/kjyGewD.jpg "joker-game_ryyr.1920[1].jpg")
Seems to be a lot lately. Not bad, but some lost potential (and not in Kabaneri lost potential way).
Expected something like those early 60s spy movies or like soviet 17th moment of spring but with japs and got just a book with different small stories.
For those autists who can't understand the topic, think the opposite of a guilty pleasure.
Samurai Flamenco was a pretty shit show, but I liked it immensely.
Meanwhile there were movies like The Titantic and Inception which were 'good', but I found boring.
>>143134605
That's not what objective means though. An objective analysis comes from the object alone and has nothing to do with your personal interpretation or reaction.
Objective:
Ghost in the Shell is X minutes long
Ghost in the Shell uses this many key frames
Subjective:
Ghost in the Shell has complex themes
Ghost in the Shell is well animated
I usually try to stay outta this bullshit but you've triggered me. Stop spreading misinformation.
>>143134987
It's not even a fujoshit since MC has love interest
>>143134886
Dude, you're just doing what >>143134605 said. You're pandering to elitist.
There's no such thing as objective measures for this, because objective is something that is real whether you like it or not, something that do not depends on humanity, such as gravity and maths
It's simple as this: Objectively, anime is not but a collection of lines, color and sound moving around. It is us the ones that give meaning to it.
>>143135104
Calm down there James Joyce.
Even the wackiest writers have to adhere to a certain syntax for the sentences to make any sense and the same goes for making movies.
Unless you're one those contemporary/postmodern types, in which case yes, your 'artistic' excretion is fucking beautiful.
>>143135247
I disliked the individual story episode route initially. Still do kinda, but I'm not really sure how they could make a overarching story with spies being sent all of the world work.
As it stands, it's a very comfy watch and probably top 5 for the season.
>>143133693
I think I know what you mean, and you're phrasing it in an ambiguous way.
I suppose what you mean is:
>Anime that you didn't enjoy, but understand why others do.
You are aware of what other people would call good, and you believe these works would be enjoyable to others, even if they weren't to you.
That's a perfectly reasonable discussion.
Your question is confusing, though, because you're conflating someone else's taste with objective truth. No one has been gifted with the ability to define good or bad for others.
>>143135637
But what if you understand why people enjoy it, but still think its shit?
I know why people love Sword Art Online, but its still shit, for example.
>>143135202
This logic is soundly retarded.
For one, "compelling" is a subjective term.
What you gonna do?
For two, "internally sound narrative" is goddamn retarded. There can be no "externally sound narrative", nor can there be any "external narrative".
For three, exploring their "themes more meaningfully" means nothing. The themes could be meaningful inside the fictional verse but what if the themes it delves upon is simply trite?
Can it be called "objectively bad" because it's overused, or "objectively good" because it delves upon it?
Not only that, we can also factor that "meaningful" doesn't mean something good. That would be a non-sequitur argument.
Someone could say that SAO's message of "not giving up" is more meaningful than others. How does that statement differentiate itself from all the other analyzations?
Yes, because what's good is just what people remember over time, amirite?
There are totally no such things as something being overlooked, or to use some buzzword, "underrated".
>>143135706
Sure, you can ask that too.
>Anime that you didn't enjoy, but you still respect people who did
Planetes and Giant Robo
>>143135377
My boy, that's why I said "to stray away from meaningless buzzwords and unspecific definitions".
Say, I say something like:
> Madoka Magica is a great anime because Homura's character is delved upon...
continuing that line of thought.
Now, what's subjective is that "Madoka Magica is good". The objective reasoning is that "Homura's character is delved upon".
You straw away from using subjective terms in order to use objective reasoning to explain why that anime is good.
That's how criticism in art is supposed to work.
You cannot have a completely objective viewpoint on an anime.
That's also part why I'm confused about how you can enjoy something you don't think is good.
>>143135954
What kind of soulless bastard doesn't enjoy Giant Robo?
>>143135457
That doesn't mean shit.
That's like saying "writers have to use proper grammar to be considered relevant".
No duh.
That doesn't affect your argument at all.
>>143133693
Kaiba.
I love it and think everything about it is beautiful, but I barely managed to finish it and I don't think I'll watch it ever again.
>>143135637
This would work better.
>>143135954
>>143136047
I didn't like Giant Robo either. Imagawa's standard slow pacing was unbearable with hour long episodes.
>>143135451
Yeah sure, if you want to be a nitpicking philosopical pedant about it.
But in that case you could argue that even gravity isn't complete fact, but only an assumed truth based on currect empirical evidence.
At this point we've stretched the concept of objectivity to such extremes that any value statement using objectivity is meaningless and the statement that entertainment can't be objective becomes rather banal.
Let's take a step back out of these semantics and at least acknowledge that there are certain universally agreed upon aspects that make a film or a book good or bad, just as there are certain scientific theories etc. that are universally agreed upon, which are in general therefore regarded as fact.
>>143136047
Well it has some cool moments but to me it felt like they kept the cool stuff from me.
The villain was a faggot compared to the BF group, his shitty revenge plot didn't help either.
>>143136111
Also this.
>>143135957
I'm not your boy and "delving" is an interpretation. I don't think objectivity exists but
>I'm confused about how you can enjoy something you don't think is good
Peer and cultural influence create the illusion of objectivity and frankly arguing about subjectivity is fucking annoying for everyone so I find it best to just run with gut feelings.
>>143133693
Almost everything made by Miyazaki. The only one I actually enjoyed was Nausicaa.
Grave of the fireflies
Just recently watched it and though I can see it's merits and why people would like it and even cry to it I mostly felt anger at the retarded MC for letting all that shit happen and not suck up his pride and find a fucking job.
Hyouka. I know, "it's so good though anon". I just hated the MC so much and i dont know why
![[HorribleSubs] K - Return of Kings - 05 [720p].mkv_snapshot_14.33_[2016.05.30_16.21.09].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/MG1bXsx.jpg "[HorribleSubs] K - Return of Kings - 05 [720p].mkv_snapshot_14.33_[2016.05.30_16.21.09].jpg")
Gonna post the opposite.
I've heard a lot of bad things about K but it was actually an okay watch.
>>143136133
Scientific theories are not exactly in the same line as literary theories.
In fact, they're way different.
Science gets it objective theories from a very different medium.
Yes, there are aspects that make literary works look good/bad, but it's still not absolute.
Literature evolves. What is amazing before might be considered a crock of shit years later.
>>143136254
Same thing happened for me. /a/ absolutely hated K when i aired and all i heard were bad things. Decided to watch this seasons newest trainwreck and actually loved it
>>143133693
>he fell for the "objectively good" meme
If you don't like it, it's not good
>>143136055
No, it fits perfectly.
I'm saying that there is a certain amount of objective criteria that can be used to judge whether something is good or not.
If you can't write proper sentences your writing is shit and it detracts from the total product of your book.
And in the same way you're movie/anime is going to suffer if you can't edit scenes properly.
These are objective criteria. At least if you don't take the concept objectivity to such extremes that it takes all meaning from the word and using it becomes meaningless.
>>143136301
Good job posting Mayoiga, an example of something I greatly enjoyed despite being complete shit. Pretty much the opposite of what OP asked.
>>143136202
I think Miyazaki and most of Ghibli movies in general were simply good, but they never really impact me or strike out to me as something amazing. The only Ghibli films that I actually loved were Totoro, Marnie, and The Cat Returns.
>>143136301
Don't be such a child.
You can appreciate a works qualities without being particularly fond of it.
>>143136394
To be fair the best part of Mayoiga was tuning into the /a/ threads about it. It was this seasons Guilty Crown
>>143136328
What if someone doesn't care about editing? I'd imagine there are people for whom good technical work is meaningless as long as something checks the right boxes for them plot-wise.
>>143136133
There aro no universally agreed aspects.
Not even when it comes to watching/reading the same thing. Take a show that you like and you think it's good, then go with other person that likes the same show and also thinks it's good, you will most likely find out that you like the same thing for different reasons. You may agree upon some points, but those ar not fixed, nor agreed.
>>143136478
What if the editing is so poorly done that it's difficult or impossible for the viewer to know what the plot is?
>>143136558
Concrete Revolutio episode 1. Holy shit, why would they do that?
>>143135715
>There can be no "externally sound narrative", nor can there be any "external narrative".
Wouldn't an "externally sound narrative" just be one that is consistent with history and events outside of the scope of the story?
>>143136328
Because you're talking about syntax. Grammar.
That's not the bloody same as themes, delivery, expression, and everything else.
Grammar has an objective criteria because it's well defined. Confusing, sure, but still well defined.
We know that "oh, nouns come after this shit". Basic stuff.
Literature is far from well defined.
Deconstructions with Derrida's meaning is literally confusing as all hell that nobody knows what's it about, and everybody keeps confusing it to subversions.
In fact, deconstruction's goals are the entire opposite of criteria that you mention, and I'm pretty sure they can still be considered good.
>>143133693
I thought this show would be about how a petty criminal turned his life around with rakugo, together with his mentor and the girl.
That would be a pretty interesting story. I wanted to see how the guy improved and overcame his past ties with the gangsters.
Turns out it just dragged on about the mentor's backstory, and it turned out to be a rather bogstandard "she liked my rival baw" story.
Do people actually believe there's absolutely no way to judge a literary work by its technical merits? Anime even has other aspects like animation and sound, are those also completely "subjective"?
I know people use "objectively" a lot these days, usually to try to make themselves look smarter than they are, or to justify their tastes, but that word isn't just a meme, you know.
>>143136635
How would they be part of story's narrative then?
External doesn't mean "outside the scope" (in simplified terms, not shown/only implied). That's still internally in the show or the verse.
"External narrative" means outside the show or verse. That makes no sense.
>>143136759
I really think there's a lot of viewers of the medium who only perceive a work's plot, and some have trouble conceiving of a work without plot, or one where the plot is unimportant to the story really being told.
>>143136759
shit, I'm objectively bad at this
I mean
>>143134852
>>143133693
These are all shows I thought were great but not my cup of tea:
Gundoh Musashi
Mars of Destruction
Cowboy Bebop
Terraformars
Gantz
Elfen Lied
Monster
Evangelion
Gundam Seed Destiny
>>143136759
I'm more surprised that there are still people like you who think a criticism of the arts can exist absolutely independent of interpretation.
Can you list what you didn't enjoy about Rakugo? Easily my AOTY and great story telling and character build up.
I couldn't really name a flaw.
>>143136891
I don't think that's what he's saying. I think he means that analysis of an audio/visual work cannot exclude technical aspects. Too much criticism of anime in particular focuses on narrative elements, and not enough about things like editing, shot composition, colors, and sound design.
>>143136656
Fair enough.
I just feel that when we come to the conclusion that objectively good things don't exist this whole discussion becomes rather stupid.
In the end this whole argument was just a result of someone thinking "hey, I know the exact definition of the word 'objectivity' and even though I basically get the gist of what OP is saying I'm still going to correct him on his misuse of the word. But I'm not going to do it directly by saying it to him, but by arguing how entertainment can't be objective."
>>143136964
not really
we shit on technical aspects on a daily basis
just look at DBS threads or QUALITY threads
>>143134584
Lack of critical influence I agree with you on. Anime hasn't yet received the critical treatment that video games got in the west, which means that for the time being it is still judged only as entertainment.
But we still have a vague canon of "objectively good shows" that both Japanese and non-Japanese people agree on. Evangelion, Lain and Technolyze maybe, and modern shows like Shin Sekai Yori. If you decide to be more specific with your designation of "canon", making it "canonical according to the tastes of western viewers" or "canonical according to the tastes of people who only care about direction" and so on, you'd get a bigger list as well, perhaps including Cowboy Bebop in the first instance and Angel's Egg in the second.
>>143133693
This show was pretty boring.
>>143137086
>Shin Sekai Yori
That show was an embarrassing flop in Japan though. Just pointing it out.
>>143136759
Poor animation and good animation can be easily identified, but the middle ground is far fuzzier. Some would argue that good animation is clean, the whole scene and not only the central elements are fluid and the details are also well animated and not just plastered on. But then there are those that say jittery shit or constant camera angle switches are "artsy good animation", others that fundamentally disagree with this statement, etc.
Music is even harder to judge as complexity and technical prowess aren't always the only elements to be considered in a composite work that combines visuals, sound effects, voices and music. You can judge whether a piece fits a scene to a degree and also whether its utilization is good or excessive, but going any further requires analyzing the composition as whole, not just one individual part of it. And this therefore requires going into whether a dialogue is of quality or not, whether the scene direction was good, whether the music and sound effects mesh together, fit the mood and don't obscure the voices, etc.
And this is not even delving on the artstyle. The notion that art can be judged by its objective quality kind of goes out the window when random paint smudges are praised as modern art.
>>143136964
But that also tends to get really blurry when it comes to personal taste.
>>143133693
gunbuster
diebuster
>>143137120
It was. Strange considering how most people who've actually watched it consider it to be fantastic.
>>143137086
I found Lain and Texhnolyze pretty awful myself. Making something convoluted does not make your point or work better. In the end the message of both shows is lost in their overly cryptical and often overdone symbolism. When you overdo something, you smudge its meaning.
>>143137204
The ending to Gunbuster broke my suspension of disbelief and I didn't really care for it that much.
>>143137086
Sure, but again a vague understanding of what's good isn't enough to guilt me into feeling bad for not liking something. I'd never go around calling Tarkovsky a hack but I'm pretty vocal about my dislike of Oshii.
I think if there's an anime canon it's 99% rooted in historical merit, meaning it's easier to disagree with artistic worth. People aren't pressured into liking Gundam in the same way they are Potemkin. That's all I'm saying.
>>143137160
>I like what people think I should like
You have a pretty lazy way of appreciating things dude. It's like you give no effort, just stick with what you know it's acclaimed to not be questioned about your taste.
Real appreciation takes far more than that.
>>143134584
>There's not enough critical influence in anime to sway me like that. Like there's no canon for me to assume greatness of.
So if there was you would? Are, basically, saying that unless people tell you what you are supposed to like or what is supposed to be good then you won't be able to think for yourself?
>>143137160
I agree that the line between "good" and "average", as well as the line between "average" and "bad", vary immensely depending of the person. If that's the whole point of this discussion, then I understand.
But some people seem to act like literature is completely devoid of technical parameters that could be analyzed in order to say something like "this work is better written than this work", which is fucking stupid.
>>143133874
>objectively good
God fucking damn it anon.
>>143135377
>Ghost in the Shell is X minutes long
>implying time isn't subjectively experienced
I couldn't enjoy the rakugo stories, but I liked the individual characters.
>>143137431
>time
>not experiencing every half second of your life concurrently
Plebian.
>>143137317
God no, I'm just talking about cultural influence. Before we ever experience Beethoven or Shakespeare we "know" they're good, right? That kinda sway doesn't exist in anime (which is a good thing imo).
>>143134666
Man, I'm really trying to get into Casshern Sins, but each episode just makes me a bit depressed. I don't mind a slow pace at all, but the atmosphere hurts my enjoyment. I realize why it's so grey and all that. Not gonna drop it yet.
>>143136891
I doubt OP or the other posters had a problem interpreting Rakugo and other such anime.
>>143134784
How can I put this: Is how much you kind of related to how much you can relate or enjoy it?
Like someone who enjoys listening to Beethoven could analyze more from any of his works than something from Dickens if that person just could not enjoy his books?
>>143137472
SAO > Shakespeare
AKB48 > Beethoven
>>143135289
I hated Titanic. I couldn't empathize with any of the characters, at all.
>>143137204
I personally love Gunbuster (Diebuster was alright) but it had some serious pacing issues and the romance melodrama was a bit much. The good far outweighed the bad for me, but I totally understand why someone wouldn't enjoy it.
>>143137662
That's because Titanic was garbage. If it wasn't based on a historical event, no one would have given it a second glance.
>>143137472
But there's a point in your life when you must face Beethoven and Shakespeare and realize, by your own criteria, why they are good or bad.
Eureka Seven.
>>143137472
Rachmaninoff>>>>>Beethoven
>Cowboy Bepop
Lack of plot was a deal breaker for me. The characters were 10/10 though
>Steins; gate
I just didn't care about the characters. Especially Mayuri.
>>143136133
>Let's take a step back out of these semantics and at least acknowledge that there are certain universally agreed upon aspects that make a film or a book good or bad, just as there are certain scientific theories etc. that are universally agreed upon, which are in general therefore regarded as fact.
This isn't true. Even anything 'universally agreed upon' is still an opinion. That's the equivalent of saying any movie that made a lot of money at the box office is good since a lot of people went to see it. That would be saying that Michael Bay is one of the greatest directors around since his movies make so much money. Or an anime such as Sword Art Online is one of the best anime of all time due to its popularity. It would put it on the same pedestal as Evangelion which is also just as influential and sold just as well.
>>143137709
Yes but our conclusion Is HEAVILY influenced by that cultural bias.
>>143133977
>so I just watched all the openings and endings on youtube and called it a day.
kek i should have done this too
>>143137628
>AKB48 > Beethoven
Say what you want about Shakespeare but this fucking bullshit is unacceptable under any standards.
>>143137769
That's a weird comparison to make
>>143137828
>Cowboy Bepop
>Lack of plot
what
>>143136964
Same thing with comics. Probably, because people don't know how to critique it even though the visuals are essential to the storytelling even more so than the script itself.
>>143137086
>Anime hasn't yet received the critical treatment that video games got in the west, which means that for the time being it is still judged only as entertainment
In America or Japan? I refuse to believe that there are a lack of animation critics in Japan. Even if it's super niche that's ok. I just find it iweird something like this doesn't exist.
>>143138095
If they exist, no actual fans give a flying fuck so they might as well not exist at all.
>>143137472
But do you think that Beethoven or Shakespeare are 'good' or do you just accept, because society has told you to think this and rejecting that would make society reject you?
>>143137566
>Is much you can analyze something related to how much you can relate or enjoy it?
Sorry, I fudged that one up.
I can't get into Makoto Shinkai's work. I can appreciate the scenery porn, but the stories don't affect me at all. Maybe because I can't relate to most of them.
Garden of Words was a step in the right direction, but 5cm per Second and Voices of a Distant Star did nothing for me.
>>143137995
Cowboy Bebop started with a bunch of episodic stories. I can see why someone might get turned off by that and not get to the meat of the series.
>>143137677
>That's because Titanic was garbage. If it wasn't based on a historical event, no one would have given it a second glance.
I couldn't agree with this more.
>>143138217
The former.
>>143138202
There's movie critics, but doesn't stop Micharl Bay or Batman v. Superman, at all.
>>143138258
Must not be a feet guy.
>>143138273
Cool. No one else agrees with me, but it's like the (semi) recent Les Miserables: no one really likes the movie on its own merits, but they have to like it because it piggybacks off something more important. It's like quality by proxy.
I think Titanic and similar movies are a perfect example of what OP's talking about.
>>143138376
Guilty as charged.I prefer legs.
>>143135289
You started your post off good, but your examples are awful. I think a better /tv/ related example would be The Wire, which was generally regarded as an amazing show, but some may find it boring.
>>143138415
I agree with your opinions and the area of human anatomy you find arousing.
>>143138507
I couldn't understand the dialect.
>>143135289
I don't understand why people find this so hard to understand. Is it really so difficult to say that something you didn't personally enjoy can be good? The world isn't going to rape your ass for saying so. Nobody's going to force you to change your opinion.
>>143138670
What show is he stealing for this? I don't recall watching it.
>>143138604
>The world isn't going to rape your ass for saying so. Nobody's going to force you to change your opinion.
True, but there are certain things that are just accepted to be great. I only started reading Shakespeare in college and it turned out Romeo and Juliet is actually pretty bad. Much Ado About Nothing is great, though. Very witty and funny. Far better romance, too. No one ever mentions that one. But I always had it in my head that Romeo and Juliet must be good. For some reason. Most people believe that, too, which is the problem.
Unless you want to get into a long discussion as to why you think the contrary (even if your reasons are entirely legitimate), it's best to just accept it if it crops up in conversation.
>>143138550
I love you, too.
>>143138672
Super slow paced and depressing. Entirely understandable. I watched it one episode a week and that felt okay. I couldn't imagine marathoning it, though.
What is considered to be good isn't some 'objective truth,' but rather some people. Take for instance /a/'s list of recommended anime. While anonymous it is no lie that majority of the people that use this site are white males from the US (not sure about economic status though as that does make a big difference too) So, ultimately, the list reflects their tastes.
This is why threads asking 'what happened to good anime from back in the day' are annoying. During those times only a few people were bringing anime over to the West so you only get to consume what those people think is 'good.' It's not that what you were watching was any good. It's just that your tastes aligned with the people bringing that shit over.
'Real men watch Shoujo' threads are a symptom of this problem. Rarely do shows aimed at females get included in recommendation lists since Western men are taught that they can't enjoy anything with a female MC or romance. It's unfortunate.
I still dislike Eva greatly, to this day. I can appreciate the storytelling, direction, animation, and Shinji as a protagonist.
But I HATE it.
>>143138911
I've actually always thought that romeo and juliet was pretty bad myself. Wasn't it made to tell families to stop with the familial rivalry bullshit or something? That might explain some things.
Regarding texhnolyze, I marathoned it and I can assure you it was probably the closest I've ever been to being depressed my whole life.
>>143138258
This. Detest his work. Shinkai shows all the hallmarks of a unique and talented artist, but his creations stand as the antithesis of my tastes.
>>143134886
Imagine being this retarded
>>143139024
>Wasn't it made to tell families to stop with the familial rivalry bullshit or something?
Yeah, basically. I suppose at the time it was more meaningful, but there's not much for modern reader to relate with, unless you're into overwrought melodrama. There are other plays of his that are more appropriate for modern times, so it's a shame that general education seems to be stuck on Romeo and Juliet and Midsummer Night's Dream (this is a good one, but every production company seems to do it 10 times a year).
>Regarding texhnolyze, I marathoned it and I can assure you it was probably the closest I've ever been to being depressed my whole life.
You madman. I'm surprised you're still with us.
>>143139079
He seems to have gotten out of his long distance romance angst phase, so maybe his next one will be better. What about his work do you dislike, specifically? Just curious, because everyone else seems to love him.
Othello is the most /a/ shakespeare play.
>>143139213
>You madman. I'm surprised you're still with us
I was actually still holding it together until episode 18 (I think that's when they go to the surface?) happened. After that I just kinda fell into despair. I don't think I watched any anime like 3 weeks after that.
>>143138217
I know Beethoven is good because i've listened to it.
Shakespeare i assume is good because society has told me so. I could change my mind if i actually read it.
>>143139384
I know it's cheesy but the 'Tempest' quotes from Zetsuen no Tempes always did something to me, I don't know what but the words resonated within me and moved me. I didn't even know what the fuck was going on or what it meant and some quotes from a lame ass anime surely don't represent the entirety of Shakespear's work but I know that I would be interested in reading now. Shakespear must be really fucking good
>>143134750
You do realize it was all a lie right?
>>143135289
>Samurai Flamenco was a pretty shit show
Explain
>inb4 Gorilla or went full crazy
IT'S A FUCKING PARODY.
Explain to me how a parody that accomplishes everything it goes for is "shit".
>>143139703
A show is supposed to be wholly entertaining. If it's not then it's shit.
Therefore Samurai Flamenco is shit. Not him btw
>>143139616
>Shakespeare must be really fucking good
He's hit and miss, but for the most part, yeah. When you consider how much he wrote, that's a real a achievement. If you haven't personally read any, you really should. If you find the language to difficult, try watching a good film adaptation first (it must use the original language!). Or even better, watch a play, but I understand that isn't an option for most people.
Incidentally, the Tempest is a very good one. I don't know of any good film adaptations, though.
>>143139749
>A show is supposed to be wholly entertaining.
Which Samurai Flamenco is?
Good parody comedy and fights.
How is that not enjoyable?
>>143139353
>>143139213
>>143139024
I watched all of Technolyze in one sitting and the only feeling I had, albeit strong, was a profound and long-lasting "WHY".
>>143139800
We don't even know if Shakespeare was one person or many persons.
>>143139213
Believe it or not, his visual style - impressive as it is, I find it boring. I prefer a more stylized portrayal of reality with anime.
Then there's his content. From what I've seen, he tries to evoke a doomed melancholy, a longing for what cant be, yet I feel he equation condemns this feeling. His works tell one to give up dreaming (specifically 5cm/S) but remain fixated on wallowing within a melancholy daydream. I dislike both of these elements. I can appreciate the value they may have, in the same way I can appreciate his art, but it is completely opposed to my own aesthetic tastes.
Eva
SAO
And other popular Animu senpai im brainwashed by moeshit
>>143133779
This.
>>143140315
>We don't even know if Shakespeare was one person or many persons.
True. That would explain the disparity in his work's quality and even themes. I think it's pretty likely it was a theater group that worked collaboratively on their plays. But I don't have any evidence of such, so...
>>143140369
>Believe it or not, his visual style - impressive as it is, I find it boring.
Oh. I didn't expect that answer.
>His works tell one to give up dreaming (specifically 5cm/S) but remain fixated on wallowing within a melancholy daydream.
Yeah, I found this pretty unsatisfying. I suppose it's meant to be romantic, but it just felt overly sentimental and didn't lead to any conclusion. Which maybe is the point.
>>143140636
You two are the only ones reading these essay lengthed monstrosities youre typing to each other
>>143141999
What a tragedy, discussing anime on an anime discussion board.
>>143136891
Of course it can. Don't be a kid.
>>143133693
God, I fucking adored everything about Rakugo. It just hit all the right spots for me.
When I dislike something I know is good, it's usually because the basic premise doesn't interest me no matter how well it's executed and I just can't stay entertained on a minute-by-minute basis. I have little interest in sci fi, so Kaiba and GiTS bored me. I also have a strong dislike for episodic series, so Bebop bored me too.
I actually don't understand why I disliked Kaiba so much. Usually a unique artstyle keeps me glued to the screen no matter what's happening, solely because of the visuals and I really liked how it looked.
>>143141999
I'm also reading them, as are you.
Nice trips
>>143133761
I totally get it, it's like Bloodborne. It's a well made good game and I can acknowledge that, but I don't like it and I don't like playing it.
>>143134828
I agree with many of these.
Especially Bebop and Gits
>>143137235
The characters were godawful.
>>143133693
I fucking loved this show on all levels.
Just saying though, if you didn't actually enjoy it you didn't actually think it was good. If you thought it was good though, that means on some level you enjoyed elements of it even others fell flat for you. Human beings don't see the world the same, there's no such thing as objective quality without some set rule for what that means.
Planetes, couldn't stomach protagonist.
Any of Ikuhara's stuff.
I love how unique his stuff is, how it looks, what it's going for and all of that, but it just doesn't do it for me.
>>143133693
As far as I can tell, that just means "anime that meet the standards of what people normally like, but you don't like them," which is dumb as fuck and not worth mentioning.
>>143136759
>technical merits
Technical merits don't make it automatically good. If it's unenjoyable, it's bad. The end. Otherwise there's no useful definition of "good" and "bad."
>>143146678
Most of the time it just seems like people liked aspects of it but not the whole thing, and for some reason they don't want to say that outright (because they think they're supposed to prioritize certain things or something) so they cushion it with "it was good but I didn't like it."
>>143147065
This is actually why I think most "guilty pleasures" exist. At times it's just people who really love shitty stuff but most of the times it's just people who love one particular aspect about a show and disregard the rest of it.
>>143146831
That seems a little short sighted. Being able to see the appeal or the quality in something but not liking it isn't a difficult concept. Personally I hate playing or watching sports. Doesn't suddenly mean playing or watching sports is bad or a shitty hobby.
>>143146831
That's retardedly simplistic. Personal taste can affect enjoyment in a way that has nothing to do with how well executed a show is.
>>143144306
The characters reacted pretty realistically to their setting.
>>143148583
But if they were more compelling it would've been a masterpiece. It's a great series as is on the strength of the worldbuilding and atmosphere, but such dull MCs really bring it down. I'd call them one dimensional but they barely even had one dimension, they were mostly just blank slates used to move the plot along.
>>143136452
The threads were shit and I started to avoid them after a few episodes, so no.
>>143147672
I can't really respond unless you give a definition of "well-executed."
>>143147368
It doesn't mean playing them is bad, just like someone watching something I don't like isn't bad. It just means they have shitty tastes that I don't agree with.
>>143134235
It's like when you think some harem is bad but still enjoy it(psst, Himari omamori)
>>143150016
>How do you think that anime is good without enjoying it?
>it's like when you think an anime is bad but you enjoy it
I don't think that's going to clear anything up for anyone.
>(psst
Kill yourself.
God damn, this thread is 90% objective-subjective art but not answering the damn question.
>>143150112
U mad?
Because you seemupset.
No need to be upset.We can ask your mom to lend us her udders.You can alsosuck on your father's dickif you want.
>>143150171
What did you expect? If you ask for someone to draw you a triangle with four sides, they aren't going to be able to do it.
>>143150288
He mad.
Are youtriggered?
>>>/lgbt/
>>143133693
I feel this way about Joker Game. I don't know if I wasn't paying attention, or I'm stupid, or whatever, but I have simply not enjoyed it all that much and have only "eh" to say about it despite thinking it might be way better than I'm giving it credit for.
>>143133693
so basically you mean series that have value of some kind, but don't really speak or try to speak to your tastebuds.
i know quite a few movies like that (there will be blood, for example). not so sure about anime. they usually do try to entertain you with comedy, even in rakugo. or other shows like tatami galaxy have a satisfying payoff that you can enjoy.
millenium actress maybe? but then again i don't know if that was good in the first place. probably applies to makoto shinkai films as well. but again, i don't think they're that good in the first place.
>>143133693
Here is the thing anon, if we all agree X is good but no one enjoy it, is it really good? The answear is obviously no because what most people call "objective" is actually nothing more than your ego going in random direction sometimes with even more unreasonable believe that you should enjoy it, but all to all you're nothing more than baffun going against yourself.
The first half of Texhnolyze was a chore to watch.
>>143136616
How there are so many people that couldn't follow that is a mystery to me.
This show was my favorite of the year so far, so I can't really see eye to eye with you there.
>>143134320
>everything depends on your taste
And you know what births taste? Experience and critical thinking. Even though subjective taste is a big part of how opinions are formed, anyone with a certain level of experience with a medium is able to tell how and why some things are bad or good based on the experience and taste they've developed by sampling different parts of the medium. It's not about taste specifically, but being able to compare various samples of different quality and tell which one is better and for what reason.
Because of this, even if you do not enjoy something, you may be able to tell when the setting is well-structured, when the drama is sympathetic, when the directing is meaningful, when the story is interesting. Your personal enjoyment does not necessarily have to reflect your personal evaluation of a form of entertainment and vice versa.
>>143136478
>What if someone doesn't care about editing?
Just because they don't care doesn't mean that they wouldn't enjoy what they're watching a lot more if it was properly edited. The rules of editing and cinematography don't just exist to please elitist reviewers.
>>143139703
>Explain to me how a parody that accomplishes everything it goes for is "shit".
Because it became exactly what it was parodying. Moreover, parody is not excused from criticism. A parody can still be utter shit.
>>143137055
>just look at DBS threads or QUALITY threads
That's mostly just surface stuff, though. It doesn't actually cover why technical aspects can be shit despite seeming visually pleasing at first glance.
>>143137160
You know that's what separates and actually good criticism from casual opinions, right? It's not that it can't be done, but the ability to criticism is, in itself, a skill that requires a lot of knowledge and a good intellectual base.
>>143150467
No, Joker Game is just mediocre. It frames the reveals to seem like clever twists, but the set up is insufficient so it lacks impactful payoff as a result. It doesn't include hints for the audience throughout the episode, it just reveals the entire thing in a rush of exposition at the end.
>>143150467
The issue with Joker Game is that it looks and acts like it's good, when it actually isn't. The visual design and general aesthetic is good, but the actual execution, stories and characters are rather underwhelming.
>>143151963
Not him, but I think this is just >>143147065
. You're saying that certain elements were well-done, but that you disliked the overall product. That doesn't mean it was good, it means it had positives despite not being good overall.
>>143133693
Bebop
>>143133693
>>143134648
Goodposts.
I often see people say they liked honey and clover, just that it was paced too slowly. Which doesn't really make sense to me, since the entire premise of the show is that it's a very realistic coming of age story - that set the genre/demographic of COA/Modern josei.
Dennou coil
It bored me to tears but the world was great.
>>143135289
Those two movies were shit and boring for me. But enough with tv autism shit. I think i feel bebop is my choice.
Josei: the thread
>>143134584
You need to think for yourself. You hated it for it not being good. Simple as that. Critics are mostly paid by companies to critique shit well anyway.
>>143133693
Utena, despite loving Penguindrum
Lain
Hyouge Mono, although maybe I'm just not far enough in yet
>>143139842
Not him. But different tastes m8, i hated bebop for the setting their in not making sense.
