CGI based anime is the future, even if today still has its limitation (human models lack expression and hair is too stiff), with a little extra work, it can give great results
Also come with some handy pros
Animation is easier and faster
Animation cost goes down, so series dont need exorbitant number sales to pay offwhich translate on more possible S2-3 etc from series and/or cheaper BD/ DVD
60FPS anime
what does /a/ think about this kind of future? if I remember right, Japan kinda of accepted well Blue Steel anime
It's the future but I hate it.
>>111751145
>cheaper & faster
I doubt that. The costs are recouped is assets can be reused a lot but building things from scratch takes a lot of resources.
I hate it.
>>111751170
I know they dont look that well now, but what if someone actually codes a good engine 100% dedicated to render Cell Shading?
The future is bleak.
>>111751145
Fuck off, stop spreading lies. 2D will/should never be overrun by CG. They both shine the most when they support each other. I hate CG but IF they have to use this shitty technique (what I'm saying isn't that CG is bad (it is though...) but that 2D is objectively superior on everything except perspective and rotation.
>>111751208
>The costs are recouped is assets can be reused a lot but building things from scratch takes a lot of resources.
but..dont they already use CGI to cut on that? cars, stock people, Etc, most mecha, already do it CGI as all it need is copy paste
>>111751219
I pray for a future where all anime CG looks like that new Guilty Gear.
I don't expect those prayers to be answered.
>Animation cost goes down
Common misconception, no it doesn't. It goes up.
Arpeggio's 3D was horrible as hell, and I hate you for reminding me of it.
Naval fights were good, but jesus christ they should've just taken the time to do 2D characters.
Sidonia was pretty good, and I don't really mind CGI, but there's just something more charming about hand-drawn anime.
>>111751145
>human models lack expression and hair is too stiff
What I like about Arpeggio is that they were able to get away with this by having Iona be a emotionless creepy staring mental image. You can't even tell it's the CG's fault since she have the same dead look in the original source.
>60FPS anime
>>>/v/
>>111751145
I really hate it.
>>111751219
the charm with anime is that it's hand-drawn.
CG-anime should be called... I don't know "unko" or something, so that the guys who like shit-CGI can watch it, and people who values the drawn qualities of anime, and the proper way of doing it, can watch it.
>>111751286
>watching CGshitArpeggio has an amazing manga.
>>111751286
But there was some pretty awesome scenes that would have noway been able to be drawn by hand. Take this one for example.
>>111751318
That webm will always be hilarious.
>>111751345
That's not impossible, but hard to pull off on a TV anime production schedule.
>>111751345
>Naval fights were good, but jesus christ they should've just taken the time to do 2D characters.
Didn't understand him when he said this?
>>111751286
humans is where Cell shading fails the worst, but they can fix it
60 FPS anime
http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/a/image/1399/84/1399843467824.webm
Even the Kancole use CGI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABZN292gvRo
Call me when CGI is completely indistinguishable from hand drawn animation. Then I'll start caring about it.
>>111751345
I think you meant "not able to be drawn by hand", but that's wrong, that scene could've and would've been amazing in 2D.
>>111751345
Yeah man could you imagine if they were able to draw like that.
>>111751145
If this means we can get a Fire Emblem: Awakening Anime then I'm all for it.
>>111751408
>that scene could've and would've been amazing in 2D.
and have the budget of a whole episode, alone
>CGI based anime is the future
No it isn't.
>Animation is easier and faster
Wrong
>Animation cost goes down, so series dont need exorbitant number sales to pay off
Wrong.
>>111751345
>CG invented the Itano Circus
There's nothing complex about the scene that would render it unfeasible to animate 2D.
>CG anime
No thanks, most of it would probably end up looking as shitty as RWBY.
>>111751208
>The costs are recouped is assets can be reused a lot
It pays of more the longer the series runs I guess.
Basically higher initial investment vs. running costs.
The downside that variations like dress changes, alterations to rooms etc. are more limited.
>>111751438
Which is why some of the cheapest Korean outsourcing studios fill their shit with CG, because of how insanely expensive it is.
>>111751462
You'd have to try to look as bad as RWBY.
That said, CG Anime aren't exactly bad. It's just technology isn't at that point.
>>111751438
>murik animator
post discarded
>>111751145
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ9Cd4MKqHs
most convincing CGI that looks like anime or 2d I've seen so far. and it's from a game
>>111751145
Kill yourself, CG means everything will be half-assed, as doing it in higher quality is more expensive. Good CGI artists can work for westerners with unlimited money, but the west doesn't do hand drawn anymore so the anime industry can pay traditional artists peanuts.
>>111751275
Yeah, generic stock copy/pasted shit. Is that what you want for anime? You want to turn everything into boring stock copypasting? What's wrong with you? Do you just want trolling fodder to taunt anime fans with?
>>111751456
That's not a Circus though. The hardest part about making that scene in 2D would be the background animation for the cuts when the camera is panning across the ship.
>>111751473
>>111751462
maybe someone will envetrually take the risk and make an engine dedicated for Cellshading, CGI.
current problem with today Cell shading is that most 3D render light is not codded to work for 2D effects but rather
>>111751533
thats what is used now for, who says they wont vamp it if the trend starts to catch?
>>111751517
A video game will have defined movements that the animators can work on polishing.
The only CG I actually liked and thought looked better than it would have in 2D was the JoJo openings.
I can't even watch Akito because it just makes me wish I was watching original Code Geass mechs instead.
>>111751406
>Call me when CGI is completely indistinguishable from hand drawn animation. Then I'll start caring about it.
Pointless request. That's like asking that digitally colored and composed anime look like 80s shows with blotches of colors for moving parts and all that crap. Some things will obviously be different, that doesn't mean change is automatically bad.
>>111751401
60FPS anime is fucking pointless. That scene - a slow motion scene - is the dumbest possible thing to use. It looks like garbage. And even if it wasn't a slow-motion scene, it would still look like garbage.
Animation doesn't work the same way as capturing images on film. There is NO benefit to animating at 60FPS. The cost in terms of time, money and manpower are astronomical in exchange for fucking nothing. Video card marketing has no place here.
>>111751596
He's not talking about the gameplay. The video he links holds a cut-scene.
>>111751517
I don't like this new look for Guilty Gear.
Quite disappointing.
CG has been used in various forms for well over a decade now. Full CG anime is also nothing new, if you look at JRPG cutscenes. Even then, there are no signs it's "the future", and 2D is still the absolute dominant aspect of japanese animation, and will likely not change due to traditional practices, expertise if the animators, and most importantly, the budgets and work environments of most anime studios. A change to CG-only would likely be the death of all but 2-3 studios and 90% of yearly series, with 2D being only seen in awful shorts. So, like western animation, but still with the same small budgets, so it'd still all look crappy.
>>111751406
CG will never be indistinguishable from hand-drawn. Just like handdrawn can't look indistinguishable from stop-motion or something. They're built on entirely different principles.
inb4 some c/o/fag brings up paperman.
>>111751618
>that doesn't mean change is automatically bad
No, but when the skill of drawing dissapears from anime, it's bad.
Now everyone can make anime. that's bad.
>>111751438
Then why the hell does anyone use CG if everyone hates it AND it's more expensive?
Because that logic is wrong, and whoever said it's more expensive is wrong
>>111751533
>CG means everything will be half-assed, as doing it in higher quality is more expensive.
Studios are cutting costs where they can with 2D animation too. Slow pans without much animated content, talking heads, faceless/low detail background characters, QUALITY, shaft slideshows etc.
>>111751628
A lot of those are the character intro moves.
>>111751697
I would rather watch a shaft slideshow than CG.
>>111751624
>The cost in terms of time, money and manpower are astronomical
if its CGI 24 FPS cut scene costs the same as 60 FPS cut scene to mak
>>111751624
>It looks like garbage.
I like how the hair flows
>>111751672
>No, but when the skill of drawing dissapears from anime, it's bad.
they still have to draw textures, draw prototypes before creating models etc.
>>111751596
>>111751628
here you go. lots of cutscenes. all CG
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M0V8887vvI
>>111751538
It's a straight zoom with a simple perspective. There's nothing hard about it. The only real issue would be how much detail put into the ship's model, which would dictate how much time it took to animate. Even then, the motion of the camera is quick, so the frame count wouldn't need to be that large for the cut.
CG isn't actual animation. It's like marionette puppetry.
>>111751594
Based on your writing style, it appears you need to review global rule 2.
If anyone can pull it off, its CC2.
If only they make stuff other than .hack movies...
>>111751772
grammar =/= quality of the post
>>111751810
I hope that gif wasn't an example of good CG, because it looks like shit.
>>111751751
The modeling is quite good, but the animation is nothing is shout about.
>>111751734
But they don't draw the fucking models, expressions, movements, or the fucking frames.
inb4 "the storyboards are 2D!" Yeah, so are storyboards for live action movies, that doesn't make them 2D.
I hear these terrible arguments all the damn time, almosts as awful as flash-apologists who try and say every studio, even Ghibli, that colours with some toonboom program is "showing how amazing flash animation can be!" or some horseshit. Fuck off /co/.
>>111751830
To be fair to the last guy, it certainly contributes to the overall quality
>>111751624
>There is NO benefit to animating at 60FPS
Did you ever watch the Sidonia regular 24FPS versus 60FPS? It makes a tremendous difference.
>>111751672
you'd stil need to be able to draw. You need to draw out the concept art for the character designs as detailed as possible. Then there is the process of storyboarding.
>>111751860
>But they don't draw the fucking models, expressions, movements, or the fucking frames.
So you're saying things like the in-between frames are good in anime?
>>111751517
That's a trailer, you can't take that as an measurement of how good CGI is because they don't let you see one scene for more than 5 seconds.
>>111751853
true. i'm not praising the animation at all as we'll get there and this is a game company. but they did the right effort for good modeling.
>>111751938
Are you implying that's an in-between?
Western 2D animation may die because it focused on things that CGI can now do better. You cannot beat CGI in framerate. Models can squash and stretch. Physics and particle effects are handled by software engineers instead of artists.
Anime is going to live on because its strengths are in its surreal, stylized qualities. Anime likes changing speeds and hanging on shots, using optical illusions instead of squash and stretch, and the Japanese audience have a preference for lines over shapes.
This means Western 3D will always have an edge over JP-made 3D because traditional Western animation concepts translate better to CGI. But it also means there will always be a place for 2D in Japan, because its goals are clearly distinguishable from CGI.
>>111751938
>implying everything from Higurashi isn't meant to be twisted and fucking horrifying.
>>111751935
>interpolation
>>111751938
>You need to draw out the concept art for the character designs as detailed as possible. Then there is the process of storyboarding.
Model riggers and storyboarders are not fucking animators. Are you going to say puppet builders and live-action storyboarders are animators, too?
>>111752026
Which means you didn't. Into the trash with your opinion.
>>111751860
>I hear these terrible arguments all the damn time, almosts as awful as flash-apologists who try and say every studio, even Ghibli, that colours with some toonboom program is "showing how amazing flash animation can be!" or some horseshit.
Why the hate for Flash? A number of Japanese animators made it work well.
>>111751994
>Models can squash and stretch.
CG will never be able to do this.
>>111751935
Anime doesn't exist in 60fps anon.
Although I would still like to see 60fps anime. Having fluid motion in my chinese cartoons is nice, even for the panning effects.
>>111751994
>using optical illusions instead of squash and stretch
You don't know what you are talking about. Squash and Stretch is a basic tenet of animation. Just because you're not seeing the extremes of something like Looney Tunes slapstick visual gags doesn't mean it isn't being employed.
And Western cartoons are dying because they've never been able to escape the Saturday Morning Ghetto.
>>111752114
>what are deformers
Stay retarded.
>>111752114
why would you want to do that?
>>111751608
>The only CG I actually liked and thought looked better than it would have in 2D was the JoJo openings.
I'm mixed on those. They work fine as openings, together with the the rad music and quick storyboarding cuts, but if you extended them to a full Jojo episode, the problems would quickly become obvious.
>I can't even watch Akito because it just makes me wish I was watching original Code Geass mechs instead.
Can't say I truly agree with that. All the mecha look and act different, even the old ones, but I like the dynamic camera and action.
2D is still best, but I I am mostly fine with 3D robots these days, at least compared to 3D people, which is still a bit hard to pull off.
>>111752108
>Why the hate for Flash?
It looks like shit.
>>111752156
Because it looks cool.
CGI is the future of animation. But Japan won't be making it.
>>111752156
It looks good in motion.
>>111752108
Yes, I know. Ping Pong did some interesting things that weren't just flat reused assets spinning around on a skeleton like Johnny Test or Rick & Morty type cancer.
I was talking about braindead /co/fags who try and say anyone who compiles handdrawn frames into a software to colour and edit, call it "flash animation just like Wakfu" or some shit. It's really annoying.
>>111752078
Sidonia wasn't produced in 60FPS. Where do you think those extra frames magically came from? A Gauna did it?
>>111752181
Why isn't there a NEET category in that chart?
>>111752215
It's among children.
>>111752181
>CGI is the future of animation.
CGI is puppetry, not animation.
>>111752215
It would be most of the chart, since elderly are also usually NEET.
>>111752166
In what sense? It can be used for animating frame-by-frame and no one would be able to tell the difference past the composite stage.
CG = shit shading or no shading at all
>>111752156
Because that's the way animation works when things move. It's the very first thing learned by every animator ever.
Take the animation of the Jojo OP's, mix it with the Asuras Wrath's ridiculous action and make it a fighting anime.
Thoughts?
>>111752256
In the sense that flash animation typically looks worse than actual animation.
>>111752156
Because that's how animation works.
Gee I wonder how they'll work that into CGI without it looking like shit.
>>111752313
Yeah, it's called JoJo ASB.
>>111752114
CG smears are already a thing. Orange's work in MJP and Akito have some of those.
>>111752344
make a code that deforme the model for "speed scenes"
as I said, the main problem I see is that there is not an Engine designed for Animation 2D, so animators have to use regular engines 3D and do works around to give that flat effect
CG is extremly frontloaded costwise.
Everything you want to do with CG must be finished in the pre-production.
After that it's way cheaper than hand-drawn animation.
Just this scene would eat up a large part of your animation if you want to drawn it. Any cuts where the camera moves through all 3D dimensions are hellish expensive - nothing can't be reused for the next cut and it would be jarring as fuck because anime animations are low-framerate animations.
There is a reason why sakuga cuts using static backgrounds or only move in one axis for the most times.
With CG you need only an animator and a guy who plans the movement of the virtual camera.
Virtually all anime are made in tiny office floors with no technology beyond some old computers. They're made with elbow grease and hunger. Anime would simply die just like western animation did if it went 3D, because it's small economy just can't sustain those budgets on a wide scale.
And television CG is pretty bad budget looking crap even in America, and they can barely pump out 2 shows a year.
>>111752422
>the main problem I see is that there is not an Engine designed for Animation 2D
It exists.
http://www.psoft.co.jp/en/product/pencil/
>>111752422
The problem with that it you're trying to apply a 2D technique to a 3D model.
People don't actually turn into blurry lines when they run in the real world, it's not going to work when you strictly use CGI.
>>111752484
well, stand corrected. now then is someone to dedicate good time on it then
>>111752506
neither do people in real life, is just needed to create the effect
>>111752476
*animation budget
>>111752371
That's a game anon, not an anime.
>>111752483
>even in America
amrik budgets are shit, remember that 5 Cm per second vs Simpsons movie ,budgets?
>>111752506
>People don't actually turn into blurry lines when they run in the real world
The real world doesn't work in frames, dipshit.
>>111752476
>With CG you need only an animator and a guy who plans the movement of the virtual camera.
And the rigger, and the lighter, and the set-builder.
>>111752256
> It can be used for animating frame-by-frame
By drawing? Then it's hand-drawn animation Flash animation is slang for software animation, ie. using tweening and vectors and such.
>>111752575
I read your post twice and saw game both times.
I think CG would have a lot of trouble reproducing the effects frequently used in man on man fights.
>>111751987
if that is a key, then that is pathetic. What I was getting at is that you are trying to say that the skill of needing to draw somehow vanishes just because you have to texture models. Its the same shit as people who think that people who use SAI Painter are somehow not artists, just because they don't draw it out on paper.
The entire point of using CG anime is that in theory, you don't have animation errors like this. In theory, you could possibly make it look indistinguishable from a 2D anime.
That said, the problem we have on our hands is that Cel Shading looks like shit for preserving an 'anime style.' Works decent for the Jojo openings because those are openings that mimic the panels of the manga, and Araki's artstyle lend itself well to cel shading.
Then you have the issue of models not even being completed. If you look at certain shots in Knights of Sidonia, you'll notice that some of the characters have white teeth floating in the red void of their mouth, not attached to anything.
It is not that CG is shit for the medium--- on the contrary. CG on anime would potentially be a thousand times better than what we have now. But Japan is shit at CG. They don't have the technology and unless someone gives them to it, we probably won't be seeing more of it due to production costs and animation limitations. If you wanted an anime in CG to look good, it'd ned to be animated at a bare minimum if 24fps per episode.
It's simply a matter of cost, talent and time, which Japan does not have. Give them ten times the regular budget and a few years, then you'd have a good CG Anime series. Why wait though?
As mentioned >>111752483 the transition to CG made the animation industry worse because of how time consuming it is. The only good CG shows I can think of in the west are Canadian and dated as fuck, being the first CG Television shows ever made (ReBoot, Beast Wars, War Planets).
tl;dr CG isn't shit, but they shouldn't use it due to cost and time.
>>111752637
That are all part of the in-house team.
You don't need to hire tens of key and in-between animators and art directors.
>>111752558
>neither do people in real life
Move your hand back in forth quickly in front of your face. Look at the trail a sparkler makes when you move it quickly in the dark. That's called "iconic memory". We don't perceive and process visual information the same when watching an actual object in motion compared to watching something on film.
That's why 2D animators manually add motion blur and distort forms. The brain doesn't automatically add those things to something you watch on film. That's why the animator has to. If they don't, you end up with the surreal soap-opera effect on the motion and it just looks wrong and fucking disgusting.
>>111752476
>Kancolle
Heh thought there was going to be some catch somewhere when they were going to make some card game into an anime.
Also you do realise how hard it is to animate a digital doll right? You have to build a human instead of just capturing an image of it. There are many times that models will have issues like clipping or outright deformations when you try to move them a certain way. You also have to move the model for every second of film time.
It's not as simple you think it is.
>>111752600
That's my point you fag.
CGI doesn't work with frames very well either.
>>111752761
I still don't understand why people call KanColle a card game. It's like calling Diablo a card game because the inventory is roughly in the shape of a card.
>>111752725
>thinking that is an animation error
>from a Norio Matsumoto sequence from a high-budget episode
Are you for real?
>>111752761
>It's not as simple you think it is.
Not more complicated than trying to hand-drawn the same scene.
Finding 3D animators is easier than getting good key animators.
I enjoy watching scenes like this because I knew they had to draw every frame of movement. If I knew it was a 3D model of some car moving forward in a 3D set I'm rarely impressed. I might as well just be watching a youtube video of a car.
>>111751994
Western 2D is dying because the west thinks cartoons are for children. Children will watch whatever they're given because they don't know anything else. The west just doesn't care about animation quality anymore so they can just pump out the equivalent of music overloaded with bass thumping to make it sound "good."
>>111752817
I believe people think it's a card game just because of the amount of girls available for play. I thought so too.
>>111752725
>animation errors like this
That's not an animation error. It's there as part of the motion. That one exaggerated frame is an important part of the overall movement. Why are you so ignorant about the very fundamentals of animation?
>>111752743
those effects can be faked in CGI too,
>>111752158
>They work fine as openings
Yeah, that's what I meant. I wouldn't want the entire anime in 3D.
>>111752817
It's a card game since it's based on probability and chance. Each girl has stats just like a Pokemon card, or a Yugioh card. It's not a skill based game, it's just fucking luck.
I've already had this arguement with some autistic tards that kept thinking it took skill to play the damn game.
Also I think the website that hosts the game calls it a "card game".
Otherwise what do you call it?
In toei we trust
>>111752833
Why care about the effort that went into it? It should only matter if it looks good. Whether they conjured it up from hell by sacrificing little girls or a computer spat it out has little relevance to the final product
>>111752822
It's much more simple than having to create each character by hand, then also create the objects they'll touch or even appear on screen.
Not to mention the backgrounds and scenery they'll be within, or how the lighting works.
You have to make pretty much their world to film it you know.
>>111753002
I'll watch Precure one of these days.
>>111752951
>Why care about the effort that went into it?
>>111753019
I've always wanted to watch it but I never know where to start
Well, Pixar and all the other big CG studios aren't even trying to emulate 2D animations.
You could see how Arpeggio and Sidonia were trying to emulate several limited animation techniques. That's jarring because that's not what we're used to see in CG - it's also completly pointless because CG can avoid all the limitations of low-budget 2d animations.
>>111753019
>>111753085
Start at the beginning, obviously.
>>111753070
it took years to make and it took me hours to watch that. and now i don't think it had a lasting effect on me.
>>111753131
I want to rub my dick on the megane science girl's face in hopes she can enlarge it even more with some science stuff.
>>111753139
Traditional animation excels at rendering the motion of organic forms. Focusing on inorganic forms for a project meant to trumpet traditional animation was fucking illogical.
>>111753101
If you're complaining about the mouth, they were obviously going for more expressive faces there, but that's a stylistic choice, that's why i posted both. the Doki ED has more anime-style tiny mouths.
>>111753019
EDs are not indicative of the actual quality. It's a kids show with pretty simple backgrounds and stuff.
And their transf-WHY DO I SUDDENLY WANT TO BUY A SPARKLY MIRROR sequences are jarring at times and endlessly recycled.
>>111752856
>Western 2D is dying because the west thinks cartoons are for children.
Western 2D is dying because it hasn't sold theatrically since what, Tarzan? Even the most godawful 3D movie sells shitloads. 3D cartoons are still all completely for children but sell millions more because, as you said, it dazzles with the technology, even though it's still nothing actually impressive. They spend millions on hair and snow programs but the character animation is the same old shit.
As for television 2D, well that's just a disaster area. Is any current 2D show even animated by any westerners anymore? For things like Adventure Time, all they do is storyboards and I believe animatics and all the actual damn animation is done by Korea. I 'blame' western animation standards themselves, which when budgeted, leads to Flash shit with those desirable high frame rates, or is just entirely outsourced.
But in my opinion, 2D animation is still popular. I know way too many complete normalfags who fucking love "Attack on Titan" and other anime.
>>111753189
>organic forms
>>111753309
something something 7 years
>>111753189
which is precisely why effort is not what you watch on something. it's the results
>>111753309
Just look at the perfection and roundness of thosetomatoes.
>>111752951
>Why care about the effort that went into it? It should only matter if it looks good.
There's a difference between a nice painting and a nice looking 3D rendered image. Some people appreciate the unique kinds of effort and techniques that the different methods require.
>>111752725
CG is shit. The west isn't capable of doing good character CG. Despite having enormous amounts of money, plenty of time to work on movies, and state of the art technology, the best they can do is make characters look like plastic toys.
>>111752942
The girls have changeable stats (like six or eight of them total I think), levels, and equipment. These progress as you play the game and do not ever reset. The luck based elements are comparable to a hit percentage in any RPG ever.
Japan also calls DnD a board game, Nip naming sense is hardly comparable to English phrases.
>>111753295
3D got a foot in the door with adults thanks to Pixar and not having decades worth of history as children's musicals and Saturday morning toy commercials.
2D occupies two realms with western audiences. One is wacky comedy for children and the other is as a sitcom delivery mechanism. Neither of which places any real importance on the animation. Rather, most shows the animation looks like garbage. Even something like the Simpsons, which has plenty of budget, still looks like sterile garbage. The animation has no function of its own beyond just being a facet of the vernacular of the show. There's no life in it compared to the early years.
>>111753477
>the best they can do is make characters look like plastic toys.
Well, they're trying to sell plastic toys.
>>111751145
You sure are optimistic.
>>111752422
>make a code that deforme the model for "speed scenes"
But every frame of a handdrawn one will be unique and entirely up to the animator, not just programmed according to a script.
>>111753441
I dunno, i an appreciate a unique style, but i'm sure as technology advances there will be plenty of unique styles to 3D too.
http://www.examiner.com/article/does-3d-animation-really-make-more-than-2d-part-4
>>111751283
Then why does anyone do it? It looks worse but costs go up?
>>111752942
That's not what card game means, you dumbass. Russian roulette is not a card game, but you should go play it anyway.
>>111753636
Even the Japanese are interested in embracing the future of animation.
>>111753618
>unique styles
>the biggest name has been around for 20 years.
>Still uses the same fucking face used for a literal doll.
>>111753547
> not just programmed according to a script.
Those things take human input too. Lots of input.
They're just tools for the artist eliminating repetitive tasks, namely redrawing the same thing over and over again. Of course those tools need some improvement to give the artist more freedom, but that's an iterative process.
the mechs in aldnoah.zero are obviously CG in many scenes but they don't look too bad since they are blocky to begin with.
On the opposite side we have the CG from that song part in mekaku shitty actors which was the most inhumane thing I ever saw
>>111753740
>On the opposite side we have the CG from that song part in mekaku shitty actors which was the most inhumane thing I ever saw
Was funny because it was done by one of the best CG studios.
>>111753636
It goes up initially, but, as Pixar has shown, once you build a certain model, it becomes cheaper by just reusing an already created asset.
You think sameface is bad now, wait until 3D isn;t being used for effects.
>that new Charlie Brown CG movie made to look as 2D as possible
So why not just draw it? I get that they want a certain effect, but my guess is that they pitched the idea as a 2D but got told by some executive that they have to make it CG or else.
>>111753530
>As with the television series, the storyboarding, characters, background layout, and animatic parts of production, were done in America. The overseas studios completed the animation, in-betweening, and digital ink and paint processes.[24]
Funny, even the Simpsons movie wasn't animated by westerners.
>>111753402
those are strawberries
>>111753843
Sameface really shouldn't be an issue with 3D. Think of your average character generator in RPG. Altering face meshes is not that difficult.
Decent hair animation is more difficult, especially for long hair, but the simplified nature of anime helps there to some extent.
>>111753634
all those 3D movies were bad to start with that, not cause they were 3D
Toy story prints money, while Titan AE. flopped
>>111753775
>>111753740
what part?
>>111753949
What the hell is Titan AE?
>>111753721
>Of course those tools need some improvement to give the artist more freedom, but that's an iterative process.
But you could've just drawn it and have absolute freedom and not have to improve or write any code for anything, whether it be 'deforms', physics, etc. Isn't it silly to spend millions to imitate something they could've done cheaper for the same effect?
One of the big problems I have with CG is that it doesn't do human interaction well.. Which is why a lot of anime these days have unimportant background characters walking the streets in CGI while the main characters in the focus are hand drawn.
Perhaps a poor example, but in >>111751276 picture, when the character's face is rubbing on the other's belly, there are no deformities whatsoever, whereas in traditional animation someone would have enough sense push a character's cheeks in if they're rubbing their face against something.
And for something like this >>111752951 , I suppose it's my personal opinion but it just looks so.. Uninspired. Downright lazy, and even a bit creepy. What I mean so say is, hand-drawn feels like there is more soul put into it.
One exception I'll make though is mechs and other weapon technology. It actually looks alright in CG form, provided they don't do something like CGI smoke trails.
>>111753991
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inGUZEDJllY
Arpeggio and Sidonia didn't sell well solely because of the CG.
>>111753949
Titan AE sucked too.
>>111753991
A pile of shit. The most cliched writing imaginable.
>>111754042
point its, article choose 3D flops and made it sound as if they flopped for being 3D, not cause hte movie overall is bad. thsoe movies would have also flopped on 2D
>>111753948
>doesn't relize how fucking sameface Tangled and Frozen are.
Jesus, the reused the FUCK out of Tangled models in Frozen. I'm not saying it's had, but it's fucking easier to literally just reuse a model, slap on a soon to be stock hairstle, and call it a day.
>>111754000
I'll agree here, for the most part mechs and ships look the best in CG, mostly because that's what the fuck it was meant for, mechanical fucking shit.
>>111753295
What? Good 2D movies were always successful. Shitty 3D movies still fail. The switch in movies happened because everyone just follows Disney.
Disney got out of traditional animation because they were failing on the story side and Pixar was doing better writing, character design, and scenarios.
>With the success of Pixar, then-Disney CEO Michael Eisner decided that public tastes had changed, and that it was time to get out of hand-drawn animation altogether ending with Home on the Range. In 2005...
It's a case of business suits making creative decisions.
As for the last one,
>The Princess and the Frog (2009) began production under the working title The Frog Princess. It marked Disney's return to traditional animation, as it was the studio's first traditionally animated film since Home on the Range (2004).
The Princess and the Frog, which was largely well received by critics and audiences alike and a financial success (grossing over $267 million).
>>111753998
Well, why draw anything anymore when you can just make it in CG instead? Drawing things is for chumps.
I wonder how many trillions these few seconds would've cost to hire a team to program and render
>>111754096
>doesn't relize how fucking sameface Tangled and Frozen are.
I haven't seen either
>because that's what the fuck it was meant for
Maybe if you're thinking CAD. But CG for movies and games has been developed with characters and mechanical objects in mind. Organic things are just more difficult.
>>111754096
Most CG mech look bad though. Only recently have we gotten some good examples of them. Even though most 2D ones were bad too, I think the best of 2D still are better than the best of 3D.
>>111754238
but think of it cost wise too
>>111753998
>But you could've just drawn it
That's expensive because drawing requires humans. The better CG gets the more humans can focus on the artistic parts such as scene arrangement, inputting the movement they want, re-rendering it if they don't like it, etc. instead of needing a korean sweatshop to draw the scene.
It should also allow them to do QCing at later stages.
>>111754165
Bro, that's pretty much what it's meant for, hell it's the fucking reason it wasn't until recently that Disney-Pixar and Dreamworks went with what amounted to a no close-to-actual-humans rule. It works great for stylized crap, but even then you're looking ay needing a 4 year window to bot make it look like plastic. Lets stop trying to look at oh my goodness it'll be just like a disney movie (movies have always fared better at this) and compare fucking series to series.
Because brother there hasn't been a good looking 3D (Flesh or Cel Shaded) weekly show that hasn't been focused on animals.
Handdrawn animation is a special and impressive artform that's completely disregarded and ignored by the west now. But as long as anime still exists on Japan's little bubble of an island I don't really care what anyone else does.
>>111754341
dont most studio already outsource part of the work to korea anyway
>>111754335
>that's pretty much what it's meant for
To me, "meant for" means "primary purpose".
If it's developed with human models in mind (hell, there even is Poser) then you cannot deny that purpose. Thus it's meant for both.
Sure, it may not be that good at one of its tasks, but that doesn't mean "it's not meant for" that task.
>>111754238
Pretty short.
>>111754304
Now here's the thing, you're going to have to stretch out the time, regardless of the program, or fall to sameface that makes drawn look positively unique.remember to stop thinking a Miyazaki film vs a Disney-Pixar film and think Generic Shoujo Anime v Strawberry Shortcake.
>>111754409
Basically what I meant, the thing is, you really shouldn't use it for what it fails at unless you have a rather large time constraint.
>>111754238
We're reaching the point where mech models look fine. The problem is their still failing at the animation. One of the biggest problems that 3D animation still has is that the animators ignore the weight and resistance of the models they are animating. Too often they even ignore even basic principles like slow in slow out.
>>111754481
Are we talking about 2D or 3D? Because that's a problem of mecha animations since Super Robot.
>>111754520
Girls und Panzer did that perfectly.
Most realistic mechanical animations in a long time.
>>111753982
in one of the last episodes they had an intro song and everyone was CG and looked horrible
>>111754481
That's not just a problem with mecha. CG Animation of characters often lacks inertia too.
>>111754304
>The better CG gets the more humans can focus on the artistic parts
But drawing is an artistic part of animation. And I said why not just draw it themselves, not just send it to koreans. They can just draw it exactly how they want it the first time without any expensive code and computers to render all the the physics, clothes, hair, lighting, deformations, trees, snow, wind, and everything else. All that becomes just slightly different strokes of pencil.
And if it frees up more time for the "real artistic parts", shouldn't that result in more freedom and variety? Maybe spending hundreds of millions QCing everything to pinpoint Pixar perfection doesn't make it more artistically expressive.
CG is shit and always will be
3D can cost cheaper or more expensive than 2D according to its quality model-wise and anmation-wise.
When it comes to inorganic things such as cars, trains, and buildings the animation cost is very low since its easy to animate.
The cost of modelling inorganic model varies on its complexity and quality level.
In most shows case, buildings and cars are very low quality and complexity-wise.
In the other hand, organic things are Very Hard to animate. This alone makes the cost of having a full 3D show very high.
>>111754560
Episode 9.
That shit was practically fucking MMD level of shit.
You can also do it like Trigger and don't deliver any animation. KLK wasn't a flop IIRC
>>111754631
Truly the insurmountable pinnacle.
>>111754591
>But drawing is an artistic part of animation
I wouldn't call korean sweatshop inbetweeners artists. They don't really add that much creativity to the process.
>And I said why not just draw it themselves, not just send it to koreans.
Cost.
>>111754394
Mostly just inbetweens. Keyframes are still done by japanese.
http://sakuga.yshi.org/tag?name=&type=1&order=name
(Funny, some Osmosis Jones just got uploaded)
>>111754023
Oh fuck my mom bought me this on dvd when I was like 14
>>111754741
Artist Unknown doesn't sound like a Japanese name, and that guy has the most posts.
>>111754631
>>111754675
inb4 "it's mocking the 3D animation industry!"
>>111754591
>physics, clothes, hair, lighting, deformations, trees, snow, wind, and everything else
Doing these things manually is fine if you want to focus on them. But you have to do it all the time for animation to look consistent, even if it's not an important part of the scene. Which becomes difficult when you factor in time constraints.
That's why we occasionally get QUALITY episodes. Remember psycho pass ep 18? Characters were fucking teleporting from pose to pose because they had to rush it.
>Evangelion was made with $65,000 an episode
>has made untold millions in profits for almost 20 years
How would it have fared with a huge CG budget instead?
>>111754779
It's animated by that guy, Toshiaki. He's always really busy.
>>111754896
we have being over this before in the thread, the popularity is not related to the style, 2D or 3D, but the story overall, hell, Rebuild uses CGI evas
>>111754830
>Expecting almost every episode won't be quality
Once again nigga, don't think Pizar, think Strawberry Shortcake, or any other kids show using 3D CGI.
>>111754896
would have been less episodes as they blew it all in the first 3.
>Studio Gainax: We're not good with money.
>>111754698
>Cost.
But japan animates it themselves. Kyoani are fucking ants compared to Disney, and pays their animators well, and still fucking draws things themselves.
Are they that completely unable to draw anything themselves these days, beyond some storyboards?
>>111754948
The most successful Gundam series for a long time uses CG mechas too.
>>111754922
Oh, I see. Man, it's really impressive how he's been in the industry for so long and yet has the speed to animate so much. Too bad his quality varies so much.
>>111754830
>Psycho pass
Psycho pass would've looked worse with CG and made with the same budget and time restraints.
>>111754948
Rebuild's CG is pretty shit. Especially the textures.
The best parts used 2D evas.
![[Commie] Psycho-Pass - 18 [22412BC8].mkv_snapshot_04.58_[2014.08.07_12.15.48].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/Z8UE7FN.jpg "[Commie] Psycho-Pass - 18 [22412BC8].mkv_snapshot_04.58_[2014.08.07_12.15.48].jpg")
>>111755003
That mostly was a talking-heads episode in known locations. Doing that in CG should have avoided those atrocious off-model charcters.
>>111754896
>Anno: I'm giving you ALL the budget for this episode, we don't even have any paint left, just markers.
Also that guy is great
http://sakuga.yshi.org/post?tags=yoh_yoshinari
>>111754967
You can't get decent hand animators in the west for cheap. They expect much higher standards of living than the japs since moon animators are often crazy otaku who just want to draw cute girls all day. The current generation of western animators hasn't been trained to do it, so you'll have to retrain your entry level guys. It would take years to build up the kind of well-oiled machine the Japanese studios have.
>>111755184
Yeah, instead of looking awkward and stupid when they're off-model, the could've looked awkward and stupid all the time.
>>111755194
See, if this was CG, it would still look cool, but it wouldn't be the same. The fact that the animator achieves the illusion of 3D space and objects, without having any actual 3D space and objects whatsoever, is what impresses me. If they were actual 3D models being played around with in a 3D set, the motions themselves would still have to be done and would still be difficult, but it'd just be manipulation of something that actually exists in the created space, like stop motion.
Stop motion is still incredibly impressive because of all the restrictions involved and hands-on quality that it requires, of course. But I never get the same feeling from CG, it either looks really cheap and awful, or too impossibly polished.
>>111754238
>posts an over 20 years old scene
I love when hand-drawn fanboys reposting the handful sakuga scenes from the last 30 years to have a point.
>>111755480
2 words
Time
Budget
I would really love if some were to make an experiment
give 2 studios, a 1 minute script and tell em to make it
1 studio specialize in traditional animation
other tries to make 2D animation using 3D
then show the result together with the budget spent, time and personal used
>>111755480
>impossibly polished
So you're not used to great CG animation?
>>111755653
That's not a good comparison though, since CG pays off more over time since you can reuse the models. For a 1 minute scene the initial effort of modeling everything will not be amortized.
Unless you stipulate insanely complex objects, camera movements and special effects as part of the script.
It's easily to skew it in the favor of one or the other.
>>111755245
Is...
Is that this Kancolle thing ? Looks unexpectedly cool
As expected from Orange
>>111755804
Yes. 50% SoL, 50% action, or so the rumor mill claims.
>>111755717
lets say this, 1 city desing can be sold or shared among Animatos
there are many places in japan that are iconic and used many time
if one studio does hte render of lets say, Tokyo Tower, and other studio then wants to use an scene in the tokyo tower, then they can sell/ rent said render and then the studio add the post production effects to add its own style
now add this to stock characters, regular vehicles, etc
the idea still that we cant really judge a 2D vs 3D work, unless we see a work that uses both so we can pair em together
ok, lets put it easy, ask an studio to remake 1 scene of Blue Steel on traditional animation and compare em
>>111755245
That first shot is obviously 2D, isn't it?
>>111755272
>You can't get decent hand animators in the west for cheap. They expect much higher standards of living than the japs since moon animators are often crazy otaku who just want to draw cute girls all day.
They definitely are extremely enthusiastic about their cute girls.
http://sakuga.yshi.org/post/show/7527/atsushi_nishigori-iizuka_haruko-illustration-isao_
But even well paid ones and good studios are the same way. On top of pay, I also think just the standard for animation is entirely different. Something actually hand-drawn animated by westerners, and minimally helped by koreans, would probably fit budgets just fine and have lots of cool stuff, but wouldn't have perfect frame rates. So they either aim high by sending off to Korean handdrawn for high frame rate, or aim low with budget Canadian flash for high frame rate.
>The current generation of western animators hasn't been trained to do it, so you'll have to retrain your entry level guys. It would take years to build up the kind of well-oiled machine the Japanese studios have.
This is what I thought. I can't think of much avenues that would even allow them to do handdrawn animation work in the first place, so there's no way for anyone to get any practice (or even incentive to practice, maybe outside of more youtube views for their shorts). Japan has a bit of this issue too, because older animators got most of their practice and worked their way up doing inbetweens, which are mostly outsourced now. But it seems westerners don't do inbetweens OR even keyframes. This sort of stuff is always on my mind because I feel bad for all those american handdrawn animators that must barely get any work.
>>111755836
If you want to compare time and budget than any such small-scale test is bound to fail since it's simply not realistic and largely depends on how you account costs and such.
And a shared model database does not exist as far as I know.
I think comparing some 2D and 3D gundam shows would be easier. But even then cost and success don't just depent on quality of the animation but also on the plot and what else is airing that season.
>>111756006
>And a shared model database does not exist as far as I know.
this was justa theory
As much as I hate to say it. Maybe ponyfags are onto something with Flash being used. It's pretty much the best of both worlds when you look at it. The cost cutting of only having a once or twice rendered model, but without 3D's time investment to get past plastic toy looking models.
What's the deal talking about CG vs. handdrawn if people only cherrypicking the handful well animated stuff?
See all the FLCL scenes. First it was an higher budget bi-monthly released OVA and second the series is already 14 years old.
>>111756078
Flash is easy for that kind of Cartoons, a regular anime have way to many details, colors and shadows to make flash anything worthy
>>111755869
>I feel bad for all those american handdrawn animators that must barely get any work.
These days they work on character designs and storyboards.
>>111756115
For the same reason 3D fags wont pony up a recent full 3D series, but instead rely on it being used as effects.
>>111756232
What?
>>111756078
Most handdrawn anime does just fine with being time and cost-saving while not looking like shit all the time like Flash does. There would be no advantage towards using it at all. If anything, Flash is the worst of both worlds just above Hanna Barbera tier stuff, and it's rise is a result of Canada being dumb.and forcing it hard without any real skilled animators.
>>111756115
That wasn't the point of those. It was to show some of the unique qualities of 2D animation. How old it is doesn't matter.
>>111756403
tl;dr, cherrypicking.
>>111755516
There have been CGI mecha shows for almost 15 years now, so I don't see the point of your shitpost
>>111756202
By animators being given work, I meant them being given actual animation work. If I watch a western cartoon, I want to believe any of them actually animated anything happening on the screen. Isn't it just sad that it doesn't? Isn't there something wrong with the fact that western Animators don't even get to animate anything at all in their own western cartoons?
If CGI is the future of anime then the anime industry is officially dead to me. I might as well watch 3DPD drama
American animation switched to cg because somewhere around toy story some suits got the idea that if a movie costs more it also must make more money. Which is ridiculous.
>>111756154
Don't forget things like different camera angles or characters that aren't in 3/4's profile on a flat plane with everybody else at all times.
>>111755516
I only said it was my preference. I admitted right there that most 2D ones were bad. Most 3D ones are too though.
I'm impressed by the KanColle CG because of the short production time.
They had maybe less than a year production time and there are less than 4 months to go until the first episode will air.
>>111756760
That reminds me of how Castle of Cagliostro was made in 5 months
>>111756232
>For the same reason 3D fags wont pony up a recent full 3D series
Err, arpeggio is right in the OP and sidionia has been mentioned
>>111756830
that's because Miyazaki is a disgusting slave driver
>>111753648
>>111753495
Still didn't answer my question.
Who gives a shit? Frozen and Tangled made more money than the entire anime industry in its history
3D is the future
>>111758093
Why would you bump this with a shitpost? Disney 2D movies also sold more than any anime.
Anime died with the end of hand painted cels
Now the japs are about to piss on its grave
>>111758208
Then why are you still here?
>>111758233
I haven't seen every anime from back when effort was put into it
![[Zeonic-Corps]_Mobile_Suit_Gundam_-_27_[640x480_H.264_AAC]_[5A309889].mkv_snapshot_13.05_[2014.06.01_14.22.33].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/d0mFcat.jpg "[Zeonic-Corps]_Mobile_Suit_Gundam_-_27_[640x480_H.264_AAC]_[5A309889].mkv_snapshot_13.05_[2014.06.01_14.22.33].jpg")
>>111758288
Time to watch the classics.
>>111758366
Still better than digital era shit
>>111758505
That cap blows this garbage out of the water
